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koraks

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Read the reviews.

Reviews help a bit, sometimes. There's however massive bias in self-reporting (reviews) and virtually none of the reviews cover long-term performance of items.

Provided they're available for the exact product you're looking at, which is often not the case when buying commodities like LED lights.
 
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Reviews help a bit, sometimes. There's however massive bias in self-reporting (reviews) and virtually none of the reviews cover long-term performance of items.

Provided they're available for the exact product you're looking at, which is often not the case when buying commodities like LED lights.

The issue with reviews currently is too many people write reviews without even using the thing.
Yes I agree. You have to be very selective and read between the lines. At least you have a place to start with the web unlike years ago when you'd ask your brother-in-law.
 

DREW WILEY

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Product makers have ways to skew reviews. Even Consumer Reports is often 90% BS. Anything Ikea or GE - laughable. Anytime a GE exec became head of another mgf co, I immediatley looked for another source, because it was almost a law of physics that the company would be trashified and out of business within six months, while the hot shot new CEO abandoned ship and ran off with his gigantic golden parachute money bag. Those guys were proverbial. And Ikea? Termites build more solid furniture than they do. But's it is amazing how many things they can make in high volume almost completely automated, with a minimum of employees. Whoever built their production machinery sure knew what they were doing.

A long time ago I did equipment reviews for Fine Homebuilding, and they paid me at least double of anyone else because I not only tested everything in real world applications, but actually dissected tools to check the internal quality. Most so-called reviewers never cut or drilled anything other than air for a few seconds. Some probably don't even know how. I was once curious what a professionally dressed man was going to do with a tube of roof asphalt and a tube of underlayment cement. He said he was on contract with Consumer Reports to write a report on Bath Caulks. Didn't even know what that meant, and he wasn't even remotely the worst example of that kind of incompetence. The fact that so many reviews are bogus is obvious because they'll assign completely different ratings to identical products, but just differently brand-labeled, whether it be a gallon of paint or a power drill. I remember an article where a Leica was called the worst 35mm camera because it cost too much didn't even come with a free case; some Sigma product got the best rating.

What a lot of today's U Tube reviews are really good at is helping people self-amputate a hand or put out an eye doing things stupidly. I gave Bosch hell for hiring a photographer for a staged ad showing incorrect and potentially lethal use of a new table saw design (nothing was actually running in the photo studio itself). Their legal dept got the point and retracted the ad. The model wasn't even using safety glasses either. They once briefly had an ex-GE type in charge of US marketing, and that kind of thing occurred. He lasted about six months, and then went to another major company which he outright bankrupted, and they brought back German mgt. I sold a helluva lot of Bosch contractor items, so they listened to me. But we love our Bosch convection oven too. Serious Bosch appliances are US made, as are many of their higher end power tools.

But here I go off on another tangent. Nobody follow me. But just as a matter of habit I seriously test things, and was frequently even paid to do so. And as a professional buyer for 40 years, I don't operate on ancedotal evidence. When I imply certain types of people are the black plague to manufacturing quality, it's because I've known a lot of them in person. Same with light bulbs. I never believed a thing the GE consumer division lighting guys ever said. You need to know who to ask, not just what to ask about.
 
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Sirius Glass

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Product makers have ways to skew reviews. Even Consumer Reports is often 90% BS. Anything Ikea or GE - laughable. Anytime a GE exec became head of another mgf co, I immediatley looked for another source, because it was almost a law of physics that the company would be trashified and out of business within six months, while the hot shot new CEO abandoned ship and ran off with his gigantic golden parachute money bag. Those guys were proverbial. And Ikea? Termites build more solid furniture than they do. But's it is amazing how many things they can make in high volume almost completely automated, with a minimum of employees. Whoever built their production machinery sure knew what they were doing.

A long time ago I did equipment reviews for Fine Homebuilding, and they paid me at least double of anyone else because I not only tested everything in real world applications, but actually dissected tools to check the internal quality. Most so-called reviewers never cut or drilled anything other than air for a few seconds. Some probably don't even know how. I was once curious what a professionally dressed man was going to do with a tube of roof asphalt and a tube of underlayment cement. He said he was on contract with Consumer Reports to write a report on Bath Caulks. Didn't even know what that meant, and he wasn't even remotely the worst example of that kind of incompetence. The fact that so many reviews are bogus is obvious because they'll assign completely different ratings to identical products, but just differently brand-labeled, whether it be a gallon of paint or a power drill. I remember an article where a Leica was called the worst 35mm camera because it cost too much didn't even come with a free case; some Sigma product got the best rating.

What a lot of today's U Tube reviews are really good at is helping people self-amputate a hand or put out an eye doing things stupidly. I gave Bosch hell for hiring a photographer for a staged ad showing incorrect and potentially lethal use of a new table saw design (nothing was actually running in the photo studio itself). Their legal dept got the point and retracted the ad. The model wasn't even using safety glasses either. They once briefly had an ex-GE type in charge of US marketing, and that kind of thing occurred. He lasted about six months, and then went to another major company which he outright bankrupted, and they brought back German mgt. I sold a helluva lot of Bosch contractor items, so they listened to me. But we love our Bosch convection oven too. Serious Bosch appliances are US made, as are many of their higher end power tools.

But here I go off on another tangent. Nobody follow me. But just as a matter of habit I seriously test things, and was frequently even paid to do so. And as a professional buyer for 40 years, I don't operate on ancedotal evidence. When I imply certain types of people are the black plague to manufacturing quality, it's because I've known a lot of them in person. Same with light bulbs. I never believed a thing the GE consumer division lighting guys ever said. You need to know who to ask, not just what to ask about.

Many articles reviewing products are not done with any scientific rigor or sometimes even consistent methods. Decades ago I would read photography magazine reviews of new camera or lens reviews and wonder if the review was influenced by the number of advertisements the magazine carried or person biases of the author. When is check internet reviews by buyers of a product I have no idea how unprejudiced or unbiased the was in the comments.
 

Ivo Stunga

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Reviews simply aren't trustworthy, haven't been for years. Price rarely reflects quality these days, as everyone is racing for more sales, competing in the same price bracket.
You cannot even trust brands these days as it's just a logo stamped on a product made in WhoKnowsInWhatChineseCorner by modern slaves.

I feel that only experiment remains and opinion presented in forums by real users. And this too - for a limited time, because soon the spec will change, and so will the product in the race to streamline production...
 

Ivo Stunga

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Recently I learned in retro gaming context that various PlayStation 2 hardware revisions weren't just innocent revisions: some resulted in noticeable performance differences and it was not a choice for you to make, you weren't informed about this. So - you cannot trust even a reputable manufacturer between revisions of a product : D

It's best just to laugh about it.
 
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Reviews simply aren't trustworthy, haven't been for years. Price rarely reflects quality these days, as everyone is racing for more sales, competing in the same price bracket.
You cannot even trust brands these days as it's just a logo stamped on a product made in WhoKnowsInWhatChineseCorner by modern slaves.

I feel that only experiment remains and opinion presented in forums by real users. And this too - for a limited time, because soon the spec will change, and so will the product in the race to streamline production...

Trusting your brother-in-law or people in a forum for recommendations has risks too. People tend to become advocates for the products they buy. Fanboys. I know I'm guilty of that at times. We see it here when we recommend lenses, cameras, film, scanners, scanning methods, or other equipment we own over other brands and methods, mostly brands and methods we never tried.


On the other hand, social media has a huge data base, a lot better than in the past when it was only your brother-in-law you trusted. You can see the product operated on YouTube. Or you can watch a video showing how to do a procedure. Advice on the web isn't perfect, but it's a terrific resource.
 

Don_ih

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we recommend lenses, cameras, film, scanners, scanning methods, or other equipment we own over other brands and methods, mostly brands and methods we never tried.

It is a bit difficult to recommend stuff you've never used. So no one would be able to recommend anything if they either had to have tried everything or couldn't base their recommendation on just what they have used. Not having extensive experience with such things doesn't mean you can't assess the quality of what you have tried. The question is, how do you assess quality in the first place? A lot of people base their judgment of an appliance, for instance, on how it looks. That's not much of an assessment of quality. At least with cameras and lenses, people tend to base their opinions on use and results.
 

DREW WILEY

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Social media has an almost worthless data base at times, Alan, or less than worthless. For example, let's say you want to buy a jigsaw, and might find some Amazon feedback or a few UTube flicks. First of all, they're all pretty much going to be on the toyish side of things; and in a single year a contractor distributor like my role was, with a big accompanying repair dept, would have a far more realistic data base thousands times larger, and based on real world conditions, long-term manufacturer quality-control interaction, routine access to their engineers etc. But call the local Appliance parts vendors in this town for a GE refrigerator part and they'll cut off your question and refer you to GE's own near-worthless website because they already know the hell involved. But when I was doing business with manufacturers whose CEO's whose careers began as skilled engineers rather than as partying fraternity presidents, and worked their way up, what a difference!

Frankly, I know very little about consumer quality cameras. I've never owned one. The same MF and LF gear I bought decades ago is still going great with a bit of periodic maintenance. My personal shop tools are lifetime, and perhaps even multi-generational. With a little TLC, same with my enlargers and most of my darkroom gear. It was commercial quality to begin with.

Sirius - reviewers for well-read publications - in my case tools and construction equip - today are mostly just lazy types who run to Home Cheapo and pick up several toyish cordless drills or whatever, which also all happen to come from the same massive factory in northern China, despite former US brand names on them. They fiddle around with them each for a few minutes or maybe even some minor test project, and write a article heavy in BS, and oriented to bottom feeders. Since many of those products do bear former US brand names, people just assume they're the same thing as before; but they're not. And often the "best buy" in a review is the worst buy, since it will probably perform poorly to begin with, and need to be replaced frequently.
But since I was a buyer who made it a point to routinely interact not only with our many contractor clients - serious, well educated kinds - as well as key people in manufacturing itself, and buying large quantities of equipment at a time from them, they routinely brought prototypes and even early production run samples to me to evaluate. One time a representative of the Swiss Embassy brought outright gave me a Swiss-made mining-grade rotary hammer, so I could do my review of that category of equipment top-down, not bottom up. I talked to engineers who had jumped from one company to another regarding patents and innovations along the way. I knew the maintenance history and reliability of items from our repair dept. Most of that kind of interaction was for sake of our own customer base, and their trust in my advice; any articles were merely a spinoff.
 

Sirius Glass

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Reviews simply aren't trustworthy, haven't been for years. Price rarely reflects quality these days, as everyone is racing for more sales, competing in the same price bracket.
You cannot even trust brands these days as it's just a logo stamped on a product made in WhoKnowsInWhatChineseCorner by modern slaves.

I feel that only experiment remains and opinion presented in forums by real users. And this too - for a limited time, because soon the spec will change, and so will the product in the race to streamline production...

I'm afraid I have to agree, Ivo.

Put me down for DITTO
 

Sirius Glass

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Social media has an almost worthless data base at times, Alan, or less than worthless. For example, let's say you want to buy a jigsaw, and might find some Amazon feedback or a few UTube flicks. First of all, they're all pretty much going to be on the toyish side of things; and in a single year a contractor distributor like my role was, with a big accompanying repair dept, would have a far more realistic data base thousands times larger, and based on real world conditions, long-term manufacturer quality-control interaction, routine access to their engineers etc. But call the local Appliance parts vendors in this town for a GE refrigerator part and they'll cut off your question and refer you to GE's own near-worthless website because they already know the hell involved. But when I was doing business with manufacturers whose CEO's whose careers began as skilled engineers rather than as partying fraternity presidents, and worked their way up, what a difference!

Frankly, I know very little about consumer quality cameras. I've never owned one. The same MF and LF gear I bought decades ago is still going great with a bit of periodic maintenance. My personal shop tools are lifetime, and perhaps even multi-generational. With a little TLC, same with my enlargers and most of my darkroom gear. It was commercial quality to begin with.

Sirius - reviewers for well-read publications - in my case tools and construction equip - today are mostly just lazy types who run to Home Cheapo and pick up several toyish cordless drills or whatever, which also all happen to come from the same massive factory in northern China, despite former US brand names on them. They fiddle around with them each for a few minutes or maybe even some minor test project, and write a article heavy in BS, and oriented to bottom feeders. Since many of those products do bear former US brand names, people just assume they're the same thing as before; but they're not. And often the "best buy" in a review is the worst buy, since it will probably perform poorly to begin with, and need to be replaced frequently.
But since I was a buyer who made it a point to routinely interact not only with our many contractor clients - serious, well educated kinds - as well as key people in manufacturing itself, and buying large quantities of equipment at a time from them, they routinely brought prototypes and even early production run samples to me to evaluate. One time a representative of the Swiss Embassy brought outright gave me a Swiss-made mining-grade rotary hammer, so I could do my review of that category of equipment top-down, not bottom up. I talked to engineers who had jumped from one company to another regarding patents and innovations along the way. I knew the maintenance history and reliability of items from our repair dept. Most of that kind of interaction was for sake of our own customer base, and their trust in my advice; any articles were merely a spinoff.

We violently agree.
 

MattKing

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When I read reviews, I'm usually looking for practical observations, not opinions as to quality.
Things like how easy something is to use, how the parts fit or work together, how bright the lights on the front are, how useful the instructions are, etc.
In many cases, there isn't much that is helpful. But sometimes there are gems.
The other information that can be useful comes from people who had problems - information about how responsive the seller was.
 

DREW WILEY

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How easily parts fit together means little if they only fit well the first month or first half hour, but not thereafter. That issue has skyrocketed now that substitute cheap alloys, zinc melt castings or moulded low-quality nylon is being substituted for die casting. Even things like screws or bolts often fail in a matter of hours or weeks due to such poor quality. I was the first big promoter of nail guns in the western US, and some of them are still in service decades later because they were die-cast alloy and designed to be repaired, with parts continuing to be made for the next 20 yrs. But all the new import ones are melt cast and last only about six months under professional use, and are basically disposable, never intended to be repaired, so cost way more in the long run. It's like that with everything. The very most expensive cordless drills to buy are by far the cheapest in the long haul, especially if one factors in cumulative replacement battery cost. True industrial batteries are made much different than consumer ones, yet often sell for less apiece due to lower markups! That even applies to drill bits - a type which costs two or three times as much to begin with might actually last 500 times longer in real world use. I'm not exaggerating at all.

And there are all kinds of ways seemingly generous warranties are actually deceptive, and not honored. "Bright lights" - you mean like all those CFL's and cheap LED's that I literally have to wear sunglasses around because the wacky spectrum is so irritating to my eyes, and that of numerous others? Gosh, Matt, you're going to drive me right out to the darkroom where a single pair of good ole EHL enlarger bulbs provides a continuous spectrum reliably for ten years or more. Of course, I keep a few spares on hand; but I'll no doubt be underground before some of them are needed. ... I'll be out there anyway after a late breakfast.

Having an inside track helps because you can anticipate things. For example, a single contract with a particular big box outlet was the tipping point in GE's decision to get out of the lighting business. They were playing with a rattlesnake and didn't know it. They made a huge production run at very little anticipated profit just to basically buy the business of that chain, and then, at the last moment, when the huge quantity of cheapified inventory was already made, the contract we re-awarded to Phillips. It nearly bankrupted GE's bulb division. Word got around; they weren't the only victim of that kind of strategy. And plenty of we insiders recognized they were playing with fire all along. But it did leave a void behind in terms of GE's commercial bulb division also being affected budget-wise, and shut down.

Fortunately, there are still multiple sources for things like enlarger bulbs, even high quality ones. Lots of the GE junk bulbs were later liquidated through other hardware and big box outlets, but had to compete in bids at a loss with equally junky new import bulbs. Pretty much a flood of poor quality bulbs, most of them now sold off or otherwise banned from sale due to implementation of the energy regulations.
 
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Sirius Glass

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I lost the thread … it started as light sources and now it is about nail guns. 😕
 

faberryman

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I lost the thread … it started as light sources and now it is about nail guns. 😕

He spent so many years selling stuff at Truitt & White Lumber and Hardware, even his posts contain a cross-sell. Someone comes in for a light bulb and goes out with a light bulb and a nail gun.
 
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DREW WILEY

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Same underlying reasons, Sirius - outsource it, make it as cheap as you can, and to hell with any pride of manufacture or consequences to the consumer. Get your quarterly stock bonus or CEO golden parachute and run. That was a plague which mostly began in the 90's. The same GE background culture types which took over the best nail maker in North America and nearly bankrupted it in six months didn't have enough common sense to realize the fatal tar pit they were entering with a hare-brained massive junk bulb contract. The handwriting on the wall was the same, and in many other examples too. Entirely predictable.

No socialized product review tells you those things. They just assume a particular brand name or reputation means something, when it no longer does.
 
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wiltw

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Reviews simply aren't trustworthy, haven't been for years. Price rarely reflects quality these days, as everyone is racing for more sales, competing in the same price bracket.
You cannot even trust brands these days as it's just a logo stamped on a product made in WhoKnowsInWhatChineseCorner by modern slaves.

I feel that only experiment remains and opinion presented in forums by real users. And this too - for a limited time, because soon the spec will change, and so will the product in the race to streamline production...

I grew up in a time when Popular Photography and Modern Photography wrote articles that explained how things functioned, how different design concepts had strengths and weaknesses, etc. Herb Keppler articles were particularly good like that.

Decades later, almost all equipment 'reviews' in magazines were thinly disguised 'ads' and rarely ever said anything even was 'mediocre'.
 
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DREW WILEY

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Things never get criticized or they won't get free or loaner samples. That's how it works. I happened to have serious financial pull, regardless. I wrote the purchase orders, and was free to speak my mind.
 

Ivo Stunga

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Decades later, almost all equipment 'reviews' in magazines were thinly disguised 'ads' and rarely ever said anything even was 'mediocre'.
Yup and in tandem with this:
Things never get criticized or they won't get free or loaner samples.

Which is especially obvious and transparent in videogaming and also for years, decades even.
If you criticize the kitchen, you don't get that free meal next time + aren't allowed anywhere near the restaurant - it's a frat party essentially, only slime allowed.


Soooo - what bulbs to choose? : D
 

DREW WILEY

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Which bulbs to choose? I said it earlier. Deal with a dedicated bulb specialty supplier instead of an ordinary retail store. These suppliers will often have serious technical information and quality choices on their sites, not just prices. Only buy bulbs actually made in the US, Japan, or the EU. If something appears too cheap to be true, it is.
 
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