Imperial v US liquid measurement

So we don't have tenths of a degree Fahrenheit? Again, practically, Fahrenheit degrees are more accurate, because they are smaller. Every fraction of a degree Fahrenheit is divisible just as many times as is a degree Celsius. And, the Fahrenheit equivalent of Kelvine, degrees Rankine, are just as practical to use, and again, more accurate.

You can divide customary units by traditional units as well as by tenths, hundredths, thousandths, millionths, just as easily.

Mils/thou's and microinches are a common example of commonly-used decimalized customary units. And in industry, where fps measure is still used almost exclusively here in the states, we simply avoid problems of conversion by sticking with one unit, usually the foot, pound, slug, and degree Rankine/Fahrenheit. All of the arguments against customary units are really obsolescent anyway now that you can buy a pocket calculator that will convert for you for $2.

OK, so 36 kph is 10 m/s. Have you ever seen a speed limit sign that was 36 kph? No, they're in 5 kph or 10 kph increments.

Even, commonly-used MPH speed limits divide into nice easy feet per second increments.

5 MPH = 7' 4" / sec.
10 MPH = 14' 8" / sec.
25 MPH = 35' 8" / sec.
35 MPH = 51' 4" / sec.
40 MPH = 58' 8" / sec.
45 MPH = 66' / sec.
50 MPH = 73' 4" / sec.
60 MPH = 88' / sec.
65 MPH = 95' 4" / sec.
70 MPH = 102' 8" / sec.
75 MPH = 110' / sec.
80 MPH = 117' 4" / sec.
85 MPH = 124' 8" / sec.
90 MPH = 132' / sec.
95 MPH = 139' 4" / sec.
100 MPH = 146' 8" / sec.

A couple of metric examples:

100 kph (~62 MPH) = 27.777. . . m/s
90 kph ( ~56 MPH) = 25 m / s the ONLY nice conversion
50 kph (~31 MPH) = 13.88888 . . . . m/s
40 kph (~24.8 MPH) = 11.1111. . . . m/s


Maybe I am overly-attached to an archaic system of measurment, and maybe metric is easier for some things (I used to be a proponent when I was younger), but then I heard about people in the U.K. being prosecuted for the use of pounds and ounces when selling bananas, and that the fine for using such units was as great as that for assaulting a police officer.

Fortunately, the United States has not adopted such a totalitarian, we-know better-than-the-average-citizen-so-we-will-make-broad-sweeping-decisions-for-them attitude.

Further, in the United States, most people are familiar with both systems of measurement, which puts them at an advantage in that they aren't totally clueless when someone expresses a distance in meters, as most non-U.S. citizens now are when given a distance in miles, or feet, or degrees Fahrenheit. Now, maybe people aren't familiar with Celsius so much here, but practically all other metric units don't give your average American any trouble.

I would argue about Americans being as familiar with metric as non-Americans are familiar with non-metric measurements. That might be true of the gallon (since the US uses an idiosyncratic version of that measurement), but most people the world over have a general idea of Fahrenheit, feet, miles, and pounds.

Perhaps the Imperial system does convert between large units per hour and small units per second, but that isn't all that important. Hardly any average person uses feet per second or metres per second on a constant basis.

The Imperial system of measurement of lengths and distances is superior when you are halving and doubling very small measurements, but it makes comparing measurements difficult for the average person. Is 5/32" bigger or smaller than 1/8"? Bigger, of course, but I bet the average person doesn't know how to tell if it is. On the other hand, 3.9mm is obviously bigger than 3.2mm. No expertise is required to understand this.

Metric is very intuitive. Water boils at 100 and freezes at 0. A litre of water weighs a kilogram. (Yes, there are gallon equivalents, but which gallon?)

Yes, Celsius is less precise than Fahrenheit (assuming the same number of digits of significance) but this is unimportant. This morning it's cloudy and 3 degrees. Well, it's 3.2, actually, but I can't feel the difference between 3 and 3.2. Besides, you can use this argument against Imperial, too. Kilometres are more precise than miles. Centimetres and millimetres are more precise than inches. Litres are more precise than gallons (and indeed, Imperial quarts too) and millilitres are so much more precise than ounces that the US has borrowed them and called them by their synonym, the CC (the cubic centimetre). Oh yes, a cubic centimetre is one millilitre. How many ounces are in a cubic inch? 0.554112554 US ounces and something else for Imperial ounces. Not so intuitive.

There is a reason governments mandated the use of metric. People are stubborn. They cling to the past. Sometimes you have to use laws to get people past that. I am not a big fan of it, but it's necessary. Once everybody has shifted to the new system, get rid of the laws.

Using metric bought us a lot of time at the gas pump. We only hit the $1.00 threshold last year. You guys in the US will be at $10 way before we are.

Oh, one last thing: Filmis4Ever, you said that "the United States has not adopted such a totalitarian, we-know-better-than-the-average-citizen-so-we-will-make-broad-sweeping-decisions-for-them attitude". If that's so, go book a trip to Cuba. Bring back some Cuban cigars to sell to your friends. Go find an 18-year-old soldier who is on leave and take him out for a beer. The US can and does make these decisions all the time; it just makes different ones than other countries make.

The problem with the Imperial and US systems is not that they are difficult to use (although they are), is that almost nobody is using them anymore. The world would be a much simpler place if we spoke one language, used one currency, and used one system of measurement. We are slowly working our way to this point. People speak English in every nation on Earth, and the average person in many non-native-English-speaking countries speaks English as well as native speakers of English do. Two world currencies, the US dollar and the euro, are of particular economic importance and the day is coming when they will be accepted in every country to some degree. Measurement is the one where we are closest to the finish line, but the stubbornness of the US holds us back. Like it or not, the US has to use metric - the rest of the world does. This means that the internal use of a non-metric system adds costs to the US economy. If the US free market does not recognize this, the government has a prerogative to correct the market inefficiency, in my opinion.

Besides, don't you think they will enjoy it in Minneapolis once you switch, and 30 degrees means it's hot outside?

PhotoJim said:

The problem with the Imperial and US systems is not that they are difficult to use (although they are), is that almost nobody is using them anymore. The world would be a much simpler place if we spoke one language, used one currency, and used one system of measurement. We are slowly working our way to this point. People speak English in every nation on Earth, and the average person in many non-native-English-speaking countries speaks English as well as native speakers of English do. Two world currencies, the US dollar and the euro, are of particular economic importance and the day is coming when they will be accepted in every country to some degree. Measurement is the one where we are closest to the finish line, but the stubbornness of the US holds us back. Like it or not, the US has to use metric - the rest of the world does. This means that the internal use of a non-metric system adds costs to the US economy. If the US free market does not recognize this, the government has a prerogative to correct the market inefficiency, in my opinion.

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No they don't, in my opinion. We both live in the Great White North, and you should be well aware of what letting the government--any government--stick their nose in to the economy does, and has done.

And don't make me gag: "There is a reason governments mandated the use of metric. People are stubborn. They cling to the past. Sometimes you have to use laws to get people past that. I am not a big fan of it, but it's necessary. Once everybody has shifted to the new system, get rid of the laws." Governments never, ever voluntarily give up power, period.

And, while this is not supposed to be a political forum, why don't you ditch the Pan-Canadian, Anti-American cant; it makes me want to blow my lunch all over my computer: "Oh, one last thing: Filmis4Ever, you said that "the United States has not adopted such a totalitarian, we-know-better-than-the-average-citizen-so-we-will-make-broad-sweeping-decisions-for-them attitude". If that's so, go book a trip to Cuba. Bring back some Cuban cigars to sell to your friends. Go find an 18-year-old soldier who is on leave and take him out for a beer. The US can and does make these decisions all the time; it just makes different ones than other countries make."

Thank God that the US went into Iraq; if you don't like that statement, why don't YOU book a trip to Cuba? You could enjoy not only the metric system, which we had forced on us in the late-70's, as well as all the other "benefits" that Castro's "enlightened" rule has brought that country. And no US Gallons in sight!

Oh yeah; I use the Metric System exclusively in my darkroom...but I don't propose ramming it down anybody's throat.

I was raised during a time in Canada in which both metric and the Imperial systems were both in common use. I found, overall, the metric system more intiutive and easier. However, the prefix naming conventions weren't my cup of tea. Who the heck could like a word like petagram?

analogfotog said:

And, while this is not supposed to be a political forum, why don't you ditch the Pan-Canadian, Anti-American cant; it makes me want to blow my lunch all over my computer

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You can eat your lunch again. You read far too much into my remark.

The poster to whom I replied stated that Britain infringed upon its citizens rights by imposing metric. I replied by showing that the US infringes upon so-called rights, too. Every country does this to some degree.

If stating the truth is political, then I guess it's political, but I think that if you read my post carefully, it should be evident that no political bent was intended.

PhotoJim said:

You can eat your lunch again. You read far too much into my remark.

The poster to whom I replied stated that Britain infringed upon its citizens rights by imposing metric. I replied by showing that the US infringes upon so-called rights, too. Every country does this to some degree.

If stating the truth is political, then I guess it's political, but I think that if you read my post carefully, it should be evident that no political bent was intended.

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So did our government. Remember the four Conservative MPs who bought a gas station, and advertised their product for sale in both Imperial and Metric, but sold only in Metric? The day after the dual signs went up, the Weights and Measures people closed them down. They broke the seals, and went back into business immediately. An enlightened judge agreed that their actions were ultimately lawful, as the government cannot enjoin a person from earning their living.

The whole affair (Metrification) was, in my opinion, a scam, to divert attention from the miserable state of the economy, that government intervention had driven us to. Part of the justification for Metrification was to supposedly make our manufacturers able to compete in a global, Metric word. If a Canadian--or US--manufacturer wants to sell metric-sized widgits, they'll tool up for it. That was a red herring, designed to convince us that Metrification was necessary, even beneficial.

Metric is easier. Divide and multiply everything by ten. Using measurements derived from such things as the distance between the king's nose and his fingertip (the yard) and dividing and multiplying by 3's and 16's is inherently inefficient.
I don't know if the US is the only holdout, but it's time their government took the bull by the horns and brought the country into the 21st century. Governments do have a purpose and setting standards is one of them.

analogfotog said:

The whole affair (Metrification) was, in my opinion, a scam, to divert attention from the miserable state of the economy, that government intervention had driven us to. Part of the justification for Metrification was to supposedly make our manufacturers able to compete in a global, Metric word. If a Canadian--or US--manufacturer wants to sell metric-sized widgits, they'll tool up for it. That was a red herring, designed to convince us that Metrification was necessary, even beneficial.

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You have more confidence in free markets than I do (and I actually have a lot of confidence in them). Economists have created the term "market failures" for a reason.

PhotoJim said:

You have more confidence in free markets than I do (and I actually have a lot of confidence in them). Economists have created the term "market failures" for a reason.

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And news commentators created the term, in the 1960's, referring to politicians, "credibility gap."

analogfotog said:

No they don't, in my opinion. We both live in the Great White North, and you should be well aware of what letting the government--any government--stick their nose in to the economy does, and has done.

And don't make me gag: "There is a reason governments mandated the use of metric. People are stubborn. They cling to the past. Sometimes you have to use laws to get people past that. I am not a big fan of it, but it's necessary. Once everybody has shifted to the new system, get rid of the laws." Governments never, ever voluntarily give up power, period.

And, while this is not supposed to be a political forum, why don't you ditch the Pan-Canadian, Anti-American cant; it makes me want to blow my lunch all over my computer: "Oh, one last thing: Filmis4Ever, you said that "the United States has not adopted such a totalitarian, we-know-better-than-the-average-citizen-so-we-will-make-broad-sweeping-decisions-for-them attitude". If that's so, go book a trip to Cuba. Bring back some Cuban cigars to sell to your friends. Go find an 18-year-old soldier who is on leave and take him out for a beer. The US can and does make these decisions all the time; it just makes different ones than other countries make."

Thank God that the US went into Iraq; if you don't like that statement, why don't YOU book a trip to Cuba? You could enjoy not only the metric system, which we had forced on us in the late-70's, as well as all the other "benefits" that Castro's "enlightened" rule has brought that country. And no US Gallons in sight!

Oh yeah; I use the Metric System exclusively in my darkroom...but I don't propose ramming it down anybody's throat.

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Somebody is a tad grumpy about the ass kicking the Sens took last night!

Remember that the metric system is a fairly recent construct, and that every other country in the world has made the transition at some time.

In the case of Norway that was in 1872; the metric system was officially introduced and the old system officially abolished. Yet I remember buying a ruler marked in "tommer" - Norwegian inches of 26.3mm - and until fairly recently the weight of newborn children was recorded in "merker" (I just don't know how much that is). We still stick to the nautical mile (1852m) and the knot (1 nm/hr) at sea, and even the Norwegian mile is an atavism: It's 10000m, which just happened to be reasonably close to the old "Landmil" of 9864m or something like that (even if the "fjerding", or quarter mile, was more commonly used).

What I'm trying to say is that it's perfectly possible for two systems of measurement to coexist, and postponing the official transition only makes it more difficult.

PhotoJim said:

There is a reason governments mandated the use of metric. People are stubborn. They cling to the past. Sometimes you have to use laws to get people past that. I am not a big fan of it, but it's necessary. Once everybody has shifted to the new system, get rid of the laws.

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So should world governments outlaw the use of film too? Do you see where I am going? Should they outlaw the use of horses?

When you have a group deciding arbitrarily to use only one system, that becomes a totalitarian dictate. I wish we still had Norwegian, French, Polish, Russian, German systems of measure.

And I sure as fuck do not support in ANY way mandating that everyone learn English as a language.

Variety is the spice of life my friend. Let's have metrics for those that can't convert fractions to decimals, or convert fractions to other fractions.

Let's not outlaw something just because we see it as inferior. Someone else may make their living by it, or rely on it.

There are 300 million people that more or less stubbornly agree with me, and those nine trips around the moon that wouldn't have been possible without feet, miles, pounds, and degrees Fahrenheit.

As for customary units being defined as the length of the king's foot, maybe in ancient or at least medieval times, but the foot was 1/3 of the Imperial Yard bar until 1959, and then exactly 30.48 cm. In the U.S. until '59 the conversion was 39.37 inches to the meter (and it still is for land surveys here in the U.S, we can't even get rid of that!)

Here's the deal: metrics are more scientifically oriented (although foot-pound-second, inch-grain-second systems can be made to work just as well), but customary units are inherently more practical for measuring the world in which we live and the size of practical objects. They take more skill to master, but those that master them are inherently more adept at doing math in their heads, and thus are more enlightened.

I still can't believe you're advocating ease of use yet still shoot film. . .

I'm typing this post because I'm a stubborn son-of-a-bitch and will probably be stuck scanning film for the newspaper until about 3 AM this morning. Now I need to inch on back to my scanner scanning 1 inch by 1 1/2 inch frames of film.

PhotoJim said:

Perhaps the Imperial system does convert between large units per hour and small units per second, but that isn't all that important. Hardly any average person uses feet per second or metres per second on a constant basis.

The Imperial system of measurement of lengths and distances is superior when you are halving and doubling very small measurements, but it makes comparing measurements difficult for the average person. Is 5/32" bigger or smaller than 1/8"? Bigger, of course, but I bet the average person doesn't know how to tell if it is. On the other hand, 3.9mm is obviously bigger than 3.2mm. No expertise is required to understand this.

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I am not an average person.

I want to be an expert, and since I obviously know a great deal about Imperial and traditional systems of measurements, I'd say that I am. Why do we live in a society that sees a need to do away with the need for expertise?

I wholeheartedly think that everyone should know metric units and that its preference in the field of science is justified. Hell, they were using it in England in the early 1800s for science, back when the Brits HATED the French and their units.

However, making the use of customary units a crime is itself a crime of government reaching its hand too far into the personal lives of its citizens. Technically, the Englishman who posted here is now a criminal for not listing metric equivalents next to Imperial Quart and US Quart units he has referred to. . .

Does anyone else have a problem with that?

Howabout film sizes, paper sizes that are stubbornly Imperial? Is it just me, or is it ridiculous that the German government had to make special exception for the allowance of the use of inches for measurement of 4x5" sheet film?

International feet are also stubbornly used for the measure of altitudes by aircraft. There was a cargo plane that crashed killing the crew because they were ignorant of the use of feet in all countries except the former communist bloc USSR and China. So in some cases there are other stubborn holdouts to internationally accepted uses of customary units.

The Imperial Gallon is still commonly used to sell fuel in many countries, mostly former English colonies.

Inches are supposedly still widely used in plumbing.

Britain still stubbornly adheres to Imperial units on her roadways, and commonly uses Fahrenheit temperatures in newspapers, and stones, pounds, and ounces for weights.

I DON'T like stone, nor do I like the use of bushels. I also despise nautical miles because they were ugly at 6080 feet, uglier at 6076.... and aren't much better at 1852M.

I know it's supposed to be one minute around the Earth's equator (you know speaking of minutes there was also metric time for a while in France; it didn't catch on), but surely something nicer, like 6600 feet (10 furlongs) or 1800 or at least 1850 m would be better.

Dinesh said:

Somebody is a tad grumpy about the ass kicking the Sens took last night!

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Na it's just the usual. They love big government when it agrees with them. :rolleyes:

You notice no complaints about how Imperial was imposed on First Canadians. Or how the companies are being allowed to get away with selling US measurement. A clear attempt to rip off older Canadians who think a gallon is a gallon. Not the neutered 3.78litre thing that is often passed off.

Nick Zentena said:

Na it's just the usual. They love big government when it agrees with them. :rolleyes:

You notice no complaints about how Imperial was imposed on First Canadians. Or how the companies are being allowed to get away with selling US measurement. A clear attempt to rip off older Canadians who think a gallon is a gallon. Not the neutered 3.78litre thing that is often passed off.

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It wasn't imposed on the First Canadians, maybe the Native Americans, but not the Canadians; they BROUGHT IT WITH THEM. In fact, there is a tribe of Native Americans living in Canada that is against the metric system. They agree with me: customary units are more in tune with the measurements of things in nature, practical everyday things.

Practically every 1 Gallon Label here in the United States lists this also as 128 fl. oz., and the equivalent in liters. Even 128 Imperial Fluid Ounces is practically the same thing, like 3 % less or ~5 oz. So let the buyer beware.

FilmIs4Ever said:

customary units are more in tune with the measurements of things in nature, practical everyday things.

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There is nothing in the imperial system that doesn't have a reasonable equivalent in the metric system. The only exception is golf. It seems to me sacrilege to measure golf distances in metres

Leagues, cups, gallons, fathoms, furlongs, rods don't have metric equivalents that are even close. Even feet, miles aren't close to their metric counterparts.

A chain is 66 feet. There are 20 chains in a furlong, 80 chains in a mile. 10 chains to the furlong (1/8th of a mile). 200 metres to the furlong, making five furlongs pretty close to a kilometre.
A chain is close enough to 20 metres, A rod is 16 1/2 feet, close enough to 5 metres.

There is no practical conversion for a league, since it is the distance and average man can walk in an hour (3.5 miles or 5.5 kilometres - which shows up another advantage of metric being that you can walk a lot faster post metric) .

My point being that these metric distances are easily transferable to the "useful" everyday category

Imperial units are an anachronism and obsolescent. Except on golf, as I may have mentioned.

johnnywalker said:

A chain is 66 feet. There are 20 chains in a furlong, 80 chains in a mile. 10 chains to the furlong (1/8th of a mile). 200 metres to the furlong, making five furlongs pretty close to a kilometre.
A chain is close enough to 20 metres, A rod is 16 1/2 feet, close enough to 5 metres.

There is no practical conversion for a league, since it is the distance and average man can walk in an hour (3.5 miles or 5.5 kilometres - which shows up another advantage of metric being that you can walk a lot faster post metric) .

My point being that these metric distances are easily transferable to the "useful" everyday category

Imperial units are an anachronism and obsolescent. Except on golf, as I may have mentioned.

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That all very well except that decimals are not as accurate fractions.

Imperial/US/Metric and the Gimli Glider

Holy smokes, what a hornet's nest I stirred up!

First, I am not concerned with the Senators' latest loss (my mother-in-law is PO'd, though). I haven't followed hockey since 1974, when Philadelphia won the Stanley Cup. A friend, who is a die-hard hockey fan, kept saying over and over, "I can't BELIEVE it; a f*****g EXPANSION team won The Cup!!"

Second, do we all remember near disaster of the Gimli Glider? Readers who are not Canadian may not attach any significance to that phrase, so check this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimli_Glider.

Third, both systems work, and work well; if you are going to shift between two systems, do your homework first.

Fourth, governments certainly have the right to set standards for commerce, and make sure that consumers aren't being ripped off. What they don't have the right to do is to close down a retailer because they advertise prices in both Metric and Imperial units. IMHO, that starts to infringe on Freedom of Speech. My parents, who were both in their mid-sixties and retired when Metrification was imposed, didn't care how the hamburger was sold; what they wanted to see was the price per pound, not per kilo. If Mom asked for two pounds of 'burg, she didn't care if the label said "2-lbs" or "907-gms," as long as she could see the price per pound, which she could relate to.

(Please, don't try to counter that argument, with nonsense, such as, "...we all have to learn new skills, move on, et cetera..." In case nobody has noticed, this is a forum for those of us who still practice CONVENTIONAL photography. I earn my living by digital imaging, and my skills are sharp. I use film for a reason...because it's familiar, and it's how I express myself. My barbecued burgers are a half-pound of meat, NOT 227 grams!!.)

Fifth, a little tolerance goes a long way in this sad and sorry world we all inhabit, right? Or should I say, eh? (I knew you were all waiting for that.)

rob champagne said:

That all very well except that decimals are not as accurate fractions.

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Only for irrational numbers and repeating decimals (not irrational or repeating people ).

From a practical standpoint? huh?

Reductio ad absurdum

analogfotog said:

IMHO, that starts to infringe on Freedom of Speech.

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Since when is it illegal to talk about the Imperial system?

It's illegal to sell products in the Imperial system measures exclusively. Metric measurements must be provided.

You're free to talk about Imperial measures all you want, with or without the use of metric.

One sidebar (that isn't really related to this discussion all that directly)... it highly annoys me when people convert badly. A woman on the radio a few weeks ago announced that we were going to get 2-4 cm of snow, about "2 and a half inches!". That just makes it worse! (2.5 inches is 6.35 cm, not at all what was predicted.)

Jon King said:

Only for irrational numbers and repeating decimals (not irrational or repeating people ).

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Actually, fractions aren't any good for irrational numbers either. Irrational numbers are, well, irrational. All fractions that do not cleanly resolve into decimal resolve into repeating decimals, not irrational ones.

Incidentally, you can accurately convert a fraction into a decimal. 1/3 is 0.333... . The decimal form is not at all ambiguous. You can argue that it is less efficient, and that is true, but it is not less accurate. It is hard to enter it into a computer, but computers convert fractions into decimals internally, so it doesn't lose any precision.

Also, I've never seen anyone routinely use repeating decimal fractions in the common measurements in Imperial that use fractions. Quarters, eights, sixteenths, and thirty-seconds (and so on, ad infinitum) all cleanly resolve into decimals. People do not generally measure to the third or ninth of an inch.