I'm Curious - T grain verses conventional Grain clearing time

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RalphLambrecht

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I'm not sure of the answer, just wanted to remind that Delta-100 is not T-Grain.

T-Grain has indeed a longer fixing time and benefits from the two-bath fixing method. I recommend to use it one-shot in rotary processing. Delta films are a different but similar technology with similar characteristics when it comes to fixing.
 
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hoffy

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I'm not sure of the answer, just wanted to remind that Delta-100 is not T-Grain.

T-Grain has indeed a longer fixing time and benefits from the two-bath fixing method. I recommend to use it one-shot in rotary processing. Delta films are a different but similar technology with similar characteristics when it comes to fixing.

Thanks. I just assumed that it was the same technology. I have been fixing Delta two bath, but not one shot, but double the length of FP4/Hp5.
 

2F/2F

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If T-grain is the improper term, what is a proper term that would encompass films of the rough design of T-Max and Delta?

What emulsions would fall under this category aside from T-Max and Delta? I believe Acros does, but I am not sure about the other Neopan emulsions. What about Rollei IR 400 or other Rollei films (such as Superpan or Retro 80S), or the discontinued Agfa APX films?
 

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Acros 100 is Sigma technology while all Gevaert films are cubic technology. By my knowledge Acros is a variant of Tmax technology. It's the finest grain iso 100 B&W film. But the differences between Acros 100, Tmax 100 and Delta 100 are not very big.
If you look at the Rollei Retro 80S it can compete in grain with the Tmax 100 too but in reality it's iso 64.
 

fschifano

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In the case of TMax films, the emulsion contains a higher percentage of silver iodide which is harder to dissolve than the other halides and so takes longer. I would not be surprised if Ilford's Delta films are similar in that regard. Determining the clearing time is easy with a clip test. Take a small piece of undeveloped film and upon it place 1 drop of fixer. Let it sit undisturbed for 30 seconds, then immerse the film chip into the fixer. When you can no longer distinguish the spot where you placed the initial drop, the film is clear. Double that time for your minimum fixing time and you're done.
 

RalphLambrecht

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If T-grain is the improper term, what is a proper term that would encompass films of the rough design of T-Max and Delta? ...

I think the proper name is 'epitaxial grain' rather than 'T-grain' and they look completely different under the microscope. However, with this difficult of a name and similar characteristics it's not hard to see why people lump the two together.

http://www.scientific.net/MSF.113-115.81
 

2F/2F

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So what is the practical solution? Calling them "e-grain films?" :D
 

2F/2F

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Alan Johnson:

"On the assumption the crystals are all a bit flat ,as a group I refer to them as tabular grain films. "

Ralph Lambrecht:

"Makes sense!"

Me:

"So, t-grained seems to make sense after all."
 
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Q.G.

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Since the abbreviation T-grain is a registered Kodak trademark, it can only be applied to Kodak films. All others are 'tabular-grain films' and have a slightly different make-up than Kodak T-grain.

But we here don't have to mind whether it is someone's trademark or not. And keeping that in mind, the question is whether Delta is, though slightly different, yet still a "T-grain" film as well as the other "tabular grain" films.
 

RalphLambrecht

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But we here don't have to mind whether it is someone's trademark or not. And keeping that in mind, the question is whether Delta is, though slightly different, yet still a "T-grain" film as well as the other "tabular grain" films.

The grain in these two films is different!
Let's not hide this fact by using the trademark name of one company and apply it to the other. The description 'tabular grain' is fine, short enough and more accurate than calling all tabular-grain films T-grain.
 

2F/2F

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Since the abbreviation T-grain is a registered Kodak trademark, it can only be applied to Kodak films. All others are 'tabular-grain films' and have a slightly different make-up than Kodak T-grain.


http://www.kodak.com/US/plugins/acrobat/en/motion/support/h1/H1_23-27.pdf

How about t-grained, as I spelled it, with a lower case T?

It seems to me that the term t-grained film is fully acceptable - and the "best" - terminology for purposes of practical conversation, being short for tabular-grained film (which is probably why Kodak trademarked the term "T-grained.")

Thanks to the info provided in this thread, I am going to call this group of films t-grained films from now on, as an abbreviation. If Kodak doesn't like it, they can sue!
 
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Q.G.

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The grain in these two films is different!
Let's not hide this fact by using the trademark name of one company and apply it to the other. The description 'tabular grain' is fine, short enough and more accurate than calling all tabular-grain films T-grain.

Yet it is hard to ignore that the "T" in T-grain is short for "tabular".

The thing (in this thread at least) is that "T" was used to set all of these tabular grain films apart from what was called "conventional grain" films, until this discussion erupted because someone said that Delta was not a T(abular) grain film.
 

RalphLambrecht

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I said:

'Delta-100 is not T-Grain'

and it isn't. Only one tabular-grain film is T-Grain. The rest is just that, tabular-grained film, possibly with it's own name.

Nice to keep them apart that way, because they are really not the same. Well, they are different enough to have made them eligible for different patents. Microscopic pictures of T-Grain are readily available from Kodak. Pictures of Ilford's tabular grain are harder to find, but I have a copy somewhere. I wish I could find them again, because they look nothing like each other. Would be nice to get ahold of a picture of Fuji's tabular grain too.

With the pictures next to each other, the differences would be more obvious.
 

2F/2F

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We know very well by now that Delta, T-Max, and Acros are different, and that only Kodak holds the trademark "T-grain," with a capital T. This is beside the point, however.

Is the Kodak version of the phrase - i.e. the trademarked one with the capital T - simply an abbreviation of the term "tabular grain," or does it somehow describe some physical characteristic of the emulsion, as Ilford's "Core Shell Crystal Technology," Fuji's "Epitaxial Sigma Crystals," or Agfa's "Twin Crystal Technology" seem to do?

So, while Kodak's tabular-grained film is different than others, and they use the term "T-Grain" to distinguish it as a Kodak product, it seems perfectly appropriate to use the abbreviation t-grain in reference to any film that uses tabular-grain technology. Context can make the distinction when spoken, and capitalization makes the distinction when written.

Since the fact that Kodak has a trademark on "T-Grain" is your argument for the point that we should not use the perfectly sensible term "t-grained" when speaking of the group of tabular-grained films, why not simply let the abbreviation "t-grained" be used, and simply use "Kodak's T-Grain technology" when speaking specifically of T-max films?

Now, if you'll excuse me, I must go Hoover my floor with my Electrolux vacuum cleaner. I need to get that out of the way now, because I need to wake up early tomorrow to go make some Xeroxes on the Fuji reproduction machine down at the Thrify on the corner (i.e. Rite Aid drug store). Then I need to head to Samy's to get some t-grained film for some shooting next week. Do you think I should get one of Kodak's T-Grain films, one of Ilford's Core Shell films, or a Fuji Epitaxial Sigma Crystal film?
 
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