I'm a Teen Looking to Learn to Develop B&W Film

Wow—thanks for all the help everyone!!!

Thanks for the clarification on storage, tkamiya—that'll be a huge help to me.

I'll look for that thermometer, dances_with_clouds, and cracking up at the D-word! Looking again at that larger tank, I suppose it'll be useful in the long run—especially if I ever get into 120. I'll need a second reel for that, right?

When I added the Stop Bath to my cart it marked it as "Hazardous", fotch and tkamiya—none of the other chemicals were marked that way...

So sorry, I'm mixing up chemical names here! vdonovan and tkamiya, I confused "Fixer" with "Wetting Agent"—I meant to be asking about how important that was. As vdonovan said, it's a good idea, so I'll go for it—the reviews were generally positive anyway.

And we can now add my to-be-bathroom-developed rolls to the many millions I'll make do depending on the lighting situation—shouldn't be too much of a challenge.

Never heard of EP Levines, John—I'll have to check them out sometime! But how well would Sprint Chemicals work with Kodak film vs. Kodak chemicals?

Thanks for the encouragement cfclark!

Thanks again to everyone who's added something—I truly appreciate this. It means so much to me, and I only am looking more and more forward to all of it! But simply the fact that I have someplace I know I can turn to for help is so important to this process.

@Sly: I'll look around for a Kodak or some other high quality thermometer then, if it's so crucial to exposure...
Also, thanks for the cautionary on finding a "dark" place.

@Dan: Thanks for the clarifications and encouragement

@Keith: LOL, thanks, but that's a little pricey! I think I can do fine without a tent/bag, there has to be SOMEWHERE in the house that is totally light free at least at night.

alphanikonrex said:

Never heard of EP Levines, John—I'll have to check them out sometime! But how well would Sprint Chemicals work with Kodak film vs. Kodak chemicals?

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sprint chemicals you can buy right off their website!
http://sprintsystems.com/order.php
they are an apug sponsor.
the developer and fix and stop work great with all films- american, european and asian.
(colleges and high schools use their chemistry.)
if you are near zeff photo supply or newtonville camera, or calumet
they will have dark room stuff as well.

have fun

john

I just set up a friend with stuff to develop film. From online, we got a tank, a thermometer, a graduate, and chemistry. Everything else we improvised with stuff at the corner store.

I'm a fan of this tank, because it comes with two reels which adjust size, so you can do two 35mm at once if you want to, and can move up to medium format if you want without buying new stuff. The tank you linked to doesn't include reels, in case you hadn't noticed.

http://freestylephoto.biz/5041-Arista-Premium-Double-Reel-Developing-Tank-with-two-reels

We also got a 650ml graduate (weird size that's hard to find normally and easier to use than a 1000ml which is easier to find), a thermometer, film and chemistry (developer and fixer) from the same site.

That along with some clothes pins, an eye dropper, a set of mixing cups, and some other stuff from the corner store, and he's good to go. Don't make it too complicated, it's barely harder than making macaroni and cheese. Just don't eat it.

alphanikonrex said:

I'll look for that thermometer, dances_with_clouds, and cracking up at the D-word! Looking again at that larger tank, I suppose it'll be useful in the long run—especially if I ever get into 120. I'll need a second reel for that, right?

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If you go with the Paterson plastic tank systems (or most others like the one c.w. linked to) the reels actually expand, so one reel will do you for 35mm or 120 film (though you'd normally load 2 reels or use a retaining clip so everything stays in place).
The other advantage which I don't think anyone has mentioned yet is that most of the plastic tank/reel systems are "ratchet loading" -- you thread a little bit of the film on and then twist the reel back & forth to load it. I find that way easier than loading steel reels.

As for tank size, this is a personal preference, but I prefer one roll per tank: It takes WAY longer to process my 5+ roll shooting binges, but if something goes wrong I'm only ruining a single roll of film...

When I added the Stop Bath to my cart it marked it as "Hazardous", fotch and tkamiya—none of the other chemicals were marked that way...

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Stop bath is sold in a concentrated liquid, and it's acid so shipping companies usually flag it "hazardous". In reality even the concentrated stop bath isn't THAT dangerous, and the working solution is essentially harmless (just don't drink it ).
For film processing you can also use a quick rinse in water in place of a stop bath (Printing is a different story & an acid stop is pretty much necessary there).

How well would Sprint Chemicals work with Kodak film vs. Kodak chemicals?

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Re: chemistry & film, in the most broad sense B&W chemistry and films are all compatible. I shoot mainly Tri-X for 35mm and actually found that I prefer the results from Sprint's developer to "real D76".

I can throw in a plug for the Sprint chemistry: I switched over to it after I developed a contact sensitivity to the metol in most developers. Their film developer is essentially a D-76 workalike, and you can use the D-76 times for whatever film you buy as a starting point (usually printed on the inside of the film carton).
The bigger plus for me with Sprint chemistry is it's all liquid, so mixing is a snap. Also they put stuff in their stop bath to make it smell like vanilla instead of vinegar (which may not seem like much, but when you're working with open trays in a tiny bathroom it's nice not to have the whole place smell like a salad gone horribly wrong ).

Once you get the basics of processing down you can (and should) mix & match with films and developers to find combinations you like. You'll find some of the differences (particularly between films) pretty amazing

Welcome. You're going to have some fun I can tell.

On the subject of developing tanks. I know there are a lot of people here who absolutely love stainless steel gear. While I don't think there is anything wrong with stainless steel tanks and reels, I'm not a big fan. Tanks are tanks. They're pretty generic and one is just as good as the next, but reels are a different story. I've had cheap stainless reels and I have good ones now. The cheap ones were worthless - I could never get them to load right. The good ones, like the Dead Link Removed (which are really good and really easy to load) are very pricey at $25 each. The cost of a 16 ounce tank and two reels will run you about $65 before taxes and shipping charges, and you'll spend more for a different reel if you want to process medium format film. For around $22 you can get Dead Link Removed. You can't go wrong. The reels have wide film guide flanges and are the easiest to load reels I've ever used bar none. Add it up, for the price of one stainless steel tank and two good reels you can buy three plastic tanks with 6 reels. Believe me when I tell you, the extra money you'd spend on the stainless steel gear doesn't magically produce better negatives. The extra film and chemistry you can buy with the extra money will allow you the practice you need to become more proficient in less time. The only caveat to observe when using plastic reels is that the reels must be absolutely clean and dry when you start out. Any trace of moisture will cause them to jam up. If in doubt, blow dry them with a hair dryer. Stainless steel reels can be loaded when wet, and stainless steel tanks have a certain panache that plastic tanks and reels lack; but so what? That's not a big advantage when all is said and done.

Wanted to give this a separate reply --

alphanikonrex said:

Hello Everyone!
... and I didn't include anything I might need for printing because I'm not sure if I want to take that road yet—for now scans are perfectly alright.

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Printing, for me, is where the real fun is -- Once you have that first roll of film developed you should definitely seek out a community darkroom (or one at your school/local college) & ask someone to walk you through a quick printing session. It's definitely an addictive experience.

You can do (almost) everything you would do in a wet darkroom with photoshop, and there's some stuff you can do in photoshop I'd never be able to match in wet processing, but B&W printing opens up a whole new world of possibilities (and a whole new appreciation for film grain) that I've always felt to be an important part of photography.

Even if you ultimately decide you want to do your finishing digitally I think printing your way through a box of 8x10 paper is something you should definitely try to experience.

Arman:

Welcome to APUG!

14 is an excellent age to start in the darkroom. Only three years later than I started .

As you have probably noticed, there is a certain amount of flexibility involved in approaching darkroom work. For that reason, there is often more than one correct answer to each of your questions.

There are also issues of preference - steel reels vs. plastic, two reel tanks vs. single reel tanks, water "stop" vs. stop bath, changing bag vs. darkened room, etc. Many of the answers you read here reflect our preferences, developed as a result of experience, information received from others, and our own circumstances (e.g., I have a windowless room that I can easily darken, so I much prefer it to a changing bag).

As you experiment, you will acquire your own preferences. Those preferences may also change over time.

You attached one internet link that appears useful. I'll attach a couple of other internet links (one Ilford, and one Kodak) that are designed to help you get started:

Dead Link Removed

and:

http://wwwtr.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/aj3/aj3.pdf

As far as equipment and supplies are concerned, all the recommendations so far (including your initial suggestions) look quite appropriate. When starting out, as long as you don't buy too much, you can't go very far wrong (one hint: Kodak Photo-flo or its competitors last a very, very long time, because you use very little each time, and it keeps well ).

I think that if you read through the posts here and the links referred to, you'll probably know enough to be able to start. Then, after you have experimented a bit, you'll probably have some more questions.

FWIW, here is what I use:

Tanks and reels - either stainless steel with stainless steel reels, or plastic reels in either Paterson tanks or the competitors linked to above - I use both because they have different strengths and weaknesses, and the quantity, size and types of film I develop varies

Developer - Kodak HC110, either at dilution E or dilution H
Stop - Kodak Indicator Stop Bath (for film - it's cheaper) and Ilford Ilfostop (when printing - it smells better)
Fix - Ilford Hypam/Ilford Rapid Fix or Kodak Rapid Fix - I'd use the Kodak if I could buy it easily without the small bottle of hardener
Wash Aid - Kodak Hypo Clearing Agent


Lots of old, used "tea" towels (they are almost lint free)

Thermometer(s) - I use two. A very good quality photographic thermometer that I use as a reference, and an inexpensive digital kitchen thermometer with a probe that I use on an every day basis, and check periodically against my photographic thermometer.

Measuring aids: mostly kitchen graduates of various sizes purchased from Dollar Stores, but I do have one small (45 ml) Paterson graduated cylinder that I use to measure very small quantities

You're lucky, if you are as fortunate as me you have many decades of fun to look forward to.

Enjoy yourself, and don't hesitate to try things, and ask questions.

Welcome to APUG, 14 is a great age to get started.

It's a lot easier in this day and age where information, help advice and feedback is so easy to obtain, so get stuck in and have fun.

Ian

Hi alphanikonrex! Welcome!

Another suggestion: before wrestling with reels in a darkroom or changing bag, take some old negative strips you don't need, or just waste a roll of film, and practice loading the film in the reels in daylight. Do it without looking so you get comfortable with the sensations. That way you won't struggle in the dark as much.

You might also want to rehearse the rest of your procedures in the light, with just water in the bottles, in your darkroom or workspace, so you are sure you have everything where you need it when the time come to do it for real.

Finally, start with test shots. Don't be too committed to the images on your first rolls. Instead, pay attention to how you exposed your shots, take notes, so you can compare what you expected against what you actually got. Note your exposure info for those first rolls, and include a grey card in the shots if you have one to help dial in exposure and development.

Have a blast!

You also must fill the tank full, not half full. Otherwise, you may have problem with bubbles forming.

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You mean I have been doing wrong for 20 ish years with out the slightest problem............

dances_w_clouds said:

You mean I have been doing wrong for 20 ish years with out the slightest problem............

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Have to agree, don't waste chemistry

tkamiya said:

As to 8 or 16 oz, you can do either way. If you get 16oz tank, you'll need two reels, even if you only develop one at a time. You'd put the second empty reel so that loaded reel won't bang around when you agitate. You also must fill the tank full, not half full. Otherwise, you may have problem with bubbles forming. Starting out, I thought you'd do one at a time. That's why I suggested 8 oz tank. In future, you may want larger tanks. It's up to you.

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It is worth getting a tank that takes 2 or 3 reels, you only use the amount of chemistry for the actual number of films you're processing, but then you have the choice to process a couple of films (or more) at a time if you want. Don't buy a tank that's 35mm only you never know when you might suddenly decide to move up to medium format and there's not much difference in price.

Ian

Well this is the first time I have ever heard or read such a thing. I guess I have been living on the wild side by just using 350mm for a single roll in my Patterson tanks and the reason being I did not want wastage. I guess I am the wild kind of guy who likes living in dangerous conditions and living on the edge. And I am not going to let a few stinking bubbles stop me...............OH well I only do 2 rolls at a time now anyway . It just isn't worth my time and trouble to do singles. I round it out to 700mm (less chance errors) My eye site isn't as keen as it used to be,,,,

I was agreeing with you, not him

Ian

See, alphanikonrex? I told you you'd get differing opinions! Still, there's no bad advice in these posts. The key is to remember that's it's supposed to be fun. Experimentation, within reasonable limits, wastes only film and time, and if you learn something, you haven't wasted anything. The hazard warning on stop bath comes from it being acid- very dilute and in most cases quite harmless. But in the past, glacial acetic acid was the primary stop bath, and that is very scary stuff when mishandled. Materials like Sprint chemistry (another plug here- we use it exclusively in our school darkrooms and it's great) are quite safe to use and to store.

I don't know where in the Boston area you are, but Hunt Photo, in Cambridge and Melrose, Newtonville Camera, in Newtonville, and Calumet, in East Cambridge, are good places to comparison shop, if you find yourself in any of those neighborhoods. The twice-annual PHSNE Photographica Show and Sale occurs again this fall in Wakefield and it's a great place to meet other photo freaks, buy cheap gear and talk darkroom.

At the risk of being accused of plugging our own program, I suggest you might look into the summer program at Belmont Hill School. (I don't teach in the summer school, but I teach there during the regular school year.) The photography program is taught this year by one of my former students and it's an excellent intro to the darkroom.

So go out there and have fun!

alphanikonrex

Boston is one of the best places you can possibly be to learn photography.

1. Take a class with real people. Belmont Hill's would be so good you can't imagine it.
2. Take pictures, and show them to real people.
3. Get offline.
4. Hang out with real photographers... Palm Press, for instance.

Have Fun.

d

The Belmont Hill darkroom is great, and if you can take a class there this summer, that would get you well on the road to learning film in short order. I'm always encouraged when young people give film a go. I'm also in the Boston area. We have a good group, so keep an eye out for any future get togethers. We have one on Sat., but it's been awhile since we did a darkroom/printing workshop. Maybe we should get one organized!!

Anyway, welcome to APUG.

Welcome (belatedly) to APUG. Tons of good advice so far. I'll just add in one additional plug for getting in to printing. In fact, the thing that got me hooked on photography was my first experience of watching a print develop in the tray - it was literally a magic moment for me, to SEE that I could make this stuff work, and watch it happen before my eyes.

These days the hardware needed for printing is ridiculously cheap, and while the consumables (paper, chemistry) are going up in price, there is still an unbelievable selection of materials to choose from (papers from Ilford, Foma, Adox, Seagull, Kentmere, Fotochemika to name a few). Many people will suggest that you start by learning to print on resin-coated (RC) paper. I think most of us learned to print on RC paper, at least those under the age of 40. RC paper has its advantages, namely ease of handling, but I think you will quickly want to move to fiber paper because of the variety of surfaces available, and the other cool things like toning that are easier to do with fiber paper.

I'll plug in another resource for supplies which is great for students - you'll have to order online as they're only located in California, but their prices and service are outstanding.

http://www.freestylephoto.biz

Do NOT be afraid of their house-label Arista products, as these are all made for them by major reputable manufacturers (Kodak, Ilford, and Foma to name a few).

I was agreeing with you, not him

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Well it was late @ night and I should have been sleeping not posting.. But I still am a wild and crazy guy...
It also seems that I learn a new tip about photography every few days/weeks/months/years and I don't think that anyone has a correct answer to the process of film and printing

The day you stop learning is the time to give up

I started at 9 or 10, got banned from the darkroom when my school friend left a tap running and flooded thr basement darkroom, and resurfaced more serious at 14, now 40+ years later I'm still learning

Ian

Thank you everyone for the warm welcome!

I'm really considering the Sprint Chemicals at this point instead of the Kodak. Since they already come in liquid form I think it would be easier for me to work with them. Couple questions: 1. I'd have to dilute all the Sprint Chemicals, right? All of them at the 1:9 ratio? and 2. Will the D-76 times work alright with the Sprint Chemistry?

As for a tank/reel, loading the film is going to be the most important thing. If the cheap steel tanks are no good for that, then I'd rather start with a small plastic tank and then later if I wish I can move on to a larger, real stainless steel tank with good reels.

I'll definitely practice with a waste roll first (I have some neglected, unused, and expired Fujicolor back from my days with my F2), just to get the hang of doing it in the dark. And taking notes on my first exposures sounds like a good idea.

And yes, I hope to someday try out printing. I know when I go to the high school in the Fall I'll definitely have a lot more resources available.

I suppose the best thing I can do is stop worrying so much about what kind of tank I buy and which brand of chemicals I use. Just get what I need and learn from that...too much questioning of these things is just going to waste my time.

Sort of reminds me of people arguing Nikon vs. Canon—if you ask me Nikon is so much better than Canon it's not even funny, yet it's the photographer and not the camera brand that matters the most. I've worked with Nikon for years and have formed a brand loyalty, but the difference is in this case I'm entering the World of Film neutrally, thus my difficulties in choosing a product because I have no "loyalties" at this point. (Of course, once I start developing I'll be a different story —hopefully not, of course, as I understand that mixing and matching chemicals/films is much better than sticking to the same thing all the time) But the point is, same goes here—it's the person doing the developing, not the chemistry that makes the difference.

Which means I need to stop dilly-dallying and need to start developing!

alphanikonrex said:

I'm really considering the Sprint Chemicals at this point instead of the Kodak. Since they already come in liquid form I think it would be easier for me to work with them. Couple questions: 1. I'd have to dilute all the Sprint Chemicals, right? All of them at the 1:9 ratio? and 2. Will the D-76 times work alright with the Sprint Chemistry?

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yup ... 1 ( chemical ) + 9 ( water ) for dev, stop fix ( prints ) fix for films is 2:8.
as for the times for developing, it is on their website ... http://www.sprintsystems.com/film_chart.php
pretty much every film you can find ...

have fun!
john

Ah, thanks for the ratios. And that chart is...massive! But just what I needed. Thanks a bunch John!

Is the Tri-X Pan 400 listed as 400TX on that chart? Because there's I think the Pan 320 listed as 320TXP, which would make it inconsistent and confusing. And does ISO change times? A little confused here about which numbers I want to be looking at... :confused:

alphanikonrex said:

Ah, thanks for the ratios. And that chart is...massive! But just what I needed. Thanks a bunch John!

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pleasure's mine ..

alphanikonrex said:

Is the Tri-X Pan 400 listed as 400TX on that chart? Because there's I think the Pan 320 listed as 320TXP, which would make it inconsistent and confusing. And does ISO change times? A little confused here about which numbers I want to be looking at... :confused:

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yes, 400 tri x pan is listed as 400tx ...

this chart explains the letters next to the film names and what +1 +3, -1 &C mean ..
depending on the conditions ( flat light, under / over exposed film plastic lens &C )
you adjust your developing time by moving up and down the developing chart.

http://www.sprintsystems.com/filmchartexp.htm

it's a pretty ingenious system ( and it works! ) ..

don't forget to have fun

john