Ilford priced to leave Japan

[Photo Engineer]

and they only did that to photo goods from the UK, not the US?

Both IIRC.

 

[Diapositivo]

The good news has to be that the GBP to U.S. dollar and euro rate exchange rate has dropped so much that if I were in the euro zone or in the U.S. I'd expect some price reductions in Ilford products in the near future

Retailers in both territories must be paying less in their respective currencies for Ilford products so will pass on the savings to their customers to increase sales, won't they?

pentaxuser

Again, maybe yes, maybe no.
Lowering your prices might be a marketing mistake. People might perceive your products as being "cheap", as being the economic alternative. Besides, raising prices is much more difficult than lowering them, meaning: the amount of business you lose when you raise prices is probably higher than the amount of business you gain when you lower them.
Ilford - or some national distributors - might decide to keep local prices steady, and pocket the difference and save it for the winter days, when the exchange rate will move unfavourably, with the idea to raise prices as late as possible.

Price positioning in a market is a very complex decision and does not normally float in parallel with the currency exchange although, in the long term, the price must be consistent/compatible with the currency exchange.

 

[blockend]

As a Brit I'd love to support Ilford more often, but it costs considerably more to bulk load Ilford film in the UK than Americans pay for pre-loaded cassettes of HP5+ and FP4, even after they've crossed the Atlantic. I always used to buy Ilford and recently reviewed my old HP4 and HP5 negatives, they're wonderfully consistent, but I just shot and developed 14 rolls of film in the previous 12 days (which is typical of the summer months) and Ilford's pricing would make a big dent in the budget.

 

[RattyMouse]

I could say the same thing about Fujifilm prices here in the USA. The cost of 400H vs Portra 400 is completely absurd. Ilford prices aren't too bad here.

Absurd?

400H 120 size: $38.45 for a box of five
Portra 400 120 size: $34.95 for a box of five

400H 135 size: $48.25
Portra 400 135 size: $35.25

(B & H Prices)

More expensive, yes. Absurd? Not even a little bit.

 

[RattyMouse]

I was in Japan last month, and also had film sticker shock. Big retailers like Yodobashi in Tokyo (Shinjuku) certainly have an impressive selection of different stocks to choose from, but the prices were steep. Even Fujifilm stocks seemed quite expensive to me. I only picked up a few 3-packs of Fujifilm stocks that are not available in the US market (Superia Premium 400, Venus 800, Natura 1600). The only low-cost exception seemed to be the ¥184 Fujicolor Industrial 100 at Kitamura in Shinjuku.

On a positive note, I had no fuss or hassle when I requested that my film be hand checked (instead of sent through the X-ray machine) at security on my departure from Haneda International Airport. Perhaps that can be chalked up to a very polite and accommodating Japanese culture.

I too had no problem asking for and receiving hand inspection of film in Japan.

That said, I gave up on that long ago once I realized that film could be X-rayed in excess of 12 times with no ill effect. My travels through Italy showed that as the film was X-rayed just about 10 times by the time I got home. No issues at all.

 

[RattyMouse]

Ever since Ilford simply doubled their prices over night last year I started importing their film and developer from the U.S.
I just had a closer look at their pricing in Japan and it's simply ridiculous! This has nothing to do with exchange rate or inflation. Unless some new taxes are being imposed that weren't there before, there is no reason for this price difference. The FX-rate doesn't move this much, and if it did we'd have bigger worries than buying film and chemicals.

Is Ilford trying to move out of Japan?
With this pricing nobody will buy their stuff in Japan.

Picked a few examples at the current rate:
Ilford DD-X: $17.95 vs $66.14 (3.7x)
Microphen: $6.50 vs $31.36 (4.8x)
Rapid Fixer: $9.90 vs $21.56 (2.2x)
HP5 Plus: $4.65 vs $9.90 (2.2x)
Delta 3200 135: $8.95 vs $15.00 (1.68x)

Who in the world will pay these prices? Ilford is certainly going to exit the Japanese market, intentionally or not with pricing like this.

 

[mooseontheloose]

Again, maybe yes, maybe no.
Lowering your prices might be a marketing mistake. People might perceive your products as being "cheap", as being the economic alternative. Besides, raising prices is much more difficult than lowering them, meaning: the amount of business you lose when you raise prices is probably higher than the amount of business you gain when you lower them.
Ilford - or some national distributors - might decide to keep local prices steady, and pocket the difference and save it for the winter days, when the exchange rate will move unfavourably, with the idea to raise prices as late as possible.

Price positioning in a market is a very complex decision and does not normally float in parallel with the currency exchange although, in the long term, the price must be consistent/compatible with the currency exchange.

Ilford was already more expensive than most everyone else BEFORE the price increase, so I'm not sure how tripling or quadrupling prices in an already small market will help their bottom line. That said, I'm not sure how big the market is for them here in Japan. I used to use their products almost exclusively, and now I'm down to whatever rolls of HP5+ I have left. Chemicals and paper are almost all Japanese (Fujifilm and Chugai) and I've been trying other brands of film beyond the big three. I know I'm just one person, but I wonder how many other photographers have been forced to try other brands because of the increased cost of Ilford products.

 

[dourbalistar]

I too had no problem asking for and receiving hand inspection of film in Japan.

That said, I gave up on that long ago once I realized that film could be X-rayed in excess of 12 times with no ill effect. My travels through Italy showed that as the film was X-rayed just about 10 times by the time I got home. No issues at all.

I probably could have not bothered as well, but was paranoid about the 800 and 1600 speed films.

 

[mooseontheloose]

I probably could have not bothered as well, but was paranoid about the 800 and 1600 speed films.

I flew out of Japan last week and that was the first time I had a problem getting my film inspected. I really had to fight for my right to the inspection since apparently the airport has new "security" measures to stop "terrorism." It's a joke because if that were true they would xray bags before people entered the airport, like they do in some Asian countries. This was in Fukuoka, which I've flown out of a lot of times, so I was kind of surprised at these new measures. Of course, when I arrived in Moscow (from Tallinn) my bags had to go through the xray machines at the train station, I imagine that will be true on the way out was well. It was kind of funny because the security guards literally had no idea what I showing them when I brought out my bags of film. I've had film xrayed over 16 times on previous trips so I'm not overly worried, but I hate those large xray machines and would prefer to get hand inspections when I can, if I can.

 

[marciofs]

As far as I know, Italian motorbikes are priced very expensively in Japan as well. And Harley-Davidson motorbikes are absurdly expensive in Italy.
I can understand the logic.
The importer is going to sell little numbers in any case. He has got an inventory risk in a niche market, and a small profit on a commoditized good.
What does he do?
He prices his goods as a luxury good. If Ilford film costs that much, it must be the "champagne" of films, some people will reckon.

Now on the risk-reward.

You have a good which costs you 90, and you sell it at 100. That's 10 or 11% profit.
Then you decede to market it as a "boutique" good. You raise the price to 140 (maybe in steps).
Your cost is always 90, but now your profit per-unit is 50, or 55% profit.

You raised the price by 40%, but that raises your unitary profits by 500% (55% being five times 11%).

The rise in prices will certainly lower the units you sold but, unless the drop in sale is 5/6, or 83%, you end up with a higher profit.

Even if your unit sales drop by 40 or 50%, i.e. enormously, your profits are still up.

Plus, you have less inventory risk, and you can build, in the long run, a "luxury image" of your product.

If you stick to this strategy in the long run, that can lead to nice rewards.

You and the original manufacturer which distributes through you (Ilford, Ducati, Harley-Davidson etc.) probably will agree on this change of strategy when it is evident that competition on price on the local market is not any more feasible, or will not for some year-long horizon.

So you take the road on the "boutique" flair of your product.

That presumes parallel import is not easily performed and is not going to disrupt your strategy.

Makes sense...

I notice how prices change inside Germany. In south Germany HP5+ normally is priced with a €8 tag in local shops. They try to sell it, as they try to do almost with every good, as luxury good. But in North Germany the HP5+ price tag at local shops are usuaally between €5 and €6.

What I find interesting is that it is almost impossible to find more affordable film negatives in local photography shops, such as Fomapan.

I was talking with a guy in a shop, telling him that if he had Fomapan I would spend between €35 and €50 every month in the shop. He didn't know the brand and I was talking about how many more people would be encuraged to do more film photography if they could find such affordable brand in local shops. So the guy talked about it to his boss and his boss simply send me the link to his film negatives supliers, so I could buy direct from their suppliers instead buing it from his shop. I was like: "wtf"?

What it seems, local shops prefer the high prices tags. But I can't believe that selling for high price for a limited number of people is more profitable than selling for many more people for an more affordable price options, since film photographers don't spend money only on film negatives but also on print, developing and scanning, or with developing and print tools, papers and chemicals.

I always get desapointed when I enter a shop with so many professional lighting, studio, and all stuff for photography, but film negative stuff is for them a alien thing.

 

[marciofs]

Ilford was already more expensive than most everyone else BEFORE the price increase, so I'm not sure how tripling or quadrupling prices in an already small market will help their bottom line. That said, I'm not sure how big the market is for them here in Japan. I used to use their products almost exclusively, and now I'm down to whatever rolls of HP5+ I have left. Chemicals and paper are almost all Japanese (Fujifilm and Chugai) and I've been trying other brands of film beyond the big three. I know I'm just one person, but I wonder how many other photographers have been forced to try other brands because of the increased cost of Ilford products.

I am one of them.
In Ireland I could find HP5+ for between €4 and €5. So I was all Ilford for street photography. Then I moved to south Germany and the cost was more than €8 the roll. So I looked for the first time an other alternative. I found Kentmere which is also Ilford, but there is no meddle format kentmere. Then I descovered Fomapan and now I am almost 100% fomapan.

 

[AgX]

What I find interesting is that it is almost impossible to find more affordable film negatives in local photography shops, such as Fomapan.

The choice of films went with the local photo shops. Very few shops in Europe remained that still got quite a choice and and even darkroom products.
The rest refrained to a basic choice.

 

[Ricardo Miranda]

As a Brit I'd love to support Ilford more often, but it costs considerably more to bulk load Ilford film in the UK than Americans pay for pre-loaded cassettes of HP5+ and FP4, even after they've crossed the Atlantic. I always used to buy Ilford and recently reviewed my old HP4 and HP5 negatives, they're wonderfully consistent, but I just shot and developed 14 rolls of film in the previous 12 days (which is typical of the summer months) and Ilford's pricing would make a big dent in the budget.

Right, can I ask you what film did you use on those 14 rolls and what sort of price did you pay?
The Kentmere films are now getting cheaper as the Foma films are getting expensive.
Foma products just had a 5% increase in the UK due to the Brexit pound devaluation.
Just for you to have an idea:
Kentmere 100 or 400 bulk 30.5m is £43.30
Fomapan 200 or 400 bulk 30.5m is £45.46
Ilford FP4+ or HP5+ bulk 30.5m is £56.05

The Ilford and Kentmere prices are from Harman Express, the online shop set up by the Ilford factory, and the Foma prices are from Process Supplies.
Now, you tell me: are these so much overpriced when compared with what you pay now?
BTW, anytime you buy from Harman Express they give you free next day delivery for purchases over £50.

A last question: do you know when was the last time there was a price increase from the factory in the UK for Ilford products?

 

[blockend]

Right, can I ask you what film did you use on those 14 rolls and what sort of price did you pay?
The Kentmere films are now getting cheaper as the Foma films are getting expensive.
Foma products just had a 5% increase in the UK due to the Brexit pound devaluation.
Just for you to have an idea:
Kentmere 100 or 400 bulk 30.5m is £43.30
Fomapan 200 or 400 bulk 30.5m is £45.46
Ilford FP4+ or HP5+ bulk 30.5m is £56.05

The Ilford and Kentmere prices are from Harman Express, the online shop set up by the Ilford factory, and the Foma prices are from Process Supplies.
Now, you tell me: are these so much overpriced when compared with what you pay now?
BTW, anytime you buy from Harman Express they give you free next day delivery for purchases over £50.

A last question: do you know when was the last time there was a price increase from the factory in the UK for Ilford products?

Can't remember the exact figures but a 30m roll of Foma 100 from Process Supplies, London, cost about £36-38, whereas the same FP4 from AG Photo was about £62. I use them as examples as it's where I usually buy film now 7-Day Shop has been brought in line with the rest. I'll certainly check prices when I next stock up. Your ref would make Kentmere 400 the cheapest fast film available in the UK as far as I'm aware. If it has the same thick film base as HP5+ (rather than Tri-X slinky coil) I might move across to Ilford again. Thanks for the price link.

 

[Ricardo Miranda]

Can't remember the exact figures but a 30m roll of Foma 100 from Process Supplies, London, cost about £36-38

The online shop from Process Supplies has been updated yet.
The Price List has the new prices. Your Fomapan 100 is now £40.92 which is still better than the £43.30 for Kentmere 100.
Apologies as I only checked the Foma 200 and 400 as that's I tend to use. I've used the 100, but only in the Summer and this year I've decided to stick to 400.
I couldn't find any major difference in the film base between HP5+ and the Kentmere films. Just like the Fomapan films they all dry flat.

Just another tidbit or 2 of info: if I remember well over a year ago Simon was still here on this board and he had said there wouldn't be a price increase in the UK for the foreseeable future. I haven't seen a price increase in more than 2 years. Only some minor increases by some retailers.
And the last one: Process Supplies has now Adox products as well as some chemistry from Spur and Moersch. Important to me is now the availability of Adox APH09 at about £8 for 500ml. It makes it a bit cheaper than Fomapan R09 that only comes in 250ml bottles.

 

[blockend]

Process Supplies has now Adox products as well as some chemistry from Spur and Moersch. Important to me is now the availability of Adox APH09 at about £8 for 500ml. It makes it a bit cheaper than Fomapan R09 that only comes in 250ml bottles.

How do you find Adox and Fomapan chemistry compares to Rodinal variants?

 

[marciofs]

How do you find Adox and Fomapan chemistry compares to Rodinal variants?

I use their developer and fixer and I find they very good.
As developer I use Adox Rodinal that comes in 500ml bottle, and it is a very good price at least in Berlin.

 

[Ricardo Miranda]

How do you find Adox and Fomapan chemistry compares to Rodinal variants?

As I said above it is recently that PS has had Adox products.
But, I have Adox Rodinal and the APH09 that I had ordered 2 months ago from AG Photographic.
I now have 1 bottle of each and have tried the 2 Adox variants and Fomadon R09: for what I do I can't the slightest difference.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Tariffs and protectionism

 

[Patrick Robert James]

It is probably the distributer. I remember Japan used to have a complex distribution system. I don't know if that still is the case, but I doubt Ilford has anything to do with the high price of film in Japan, so blaming them is kind of wrong.

 

[AgX]

A distributor cannot do what he wants, there still is way for the manufacturer to control him, though indirectly and likely with a time lag.

 

[MattKing]

A distributor cannot do what he wants, there still is way for the manufacturer to control him, though indirectly and likely with a time lag.

This would be illegal in Canada. I expect in the USA as well.

 

[ericdan]

It is probably the distributer. I remember Japan used to have a complex distribution system. I don't know if that still is the case, but I doubt Ilford has anything to do with the high price of film in Japan, so blaming them is kind of wrong.

Nobody is blaming anyone. We just want to know the reason for the large discrepancy.

 

[mnemosyne]

I am one of them.
In Ireland I could find HP5+ for between €4 and €5. So I was all Ilford for street photography. Then I moved to south Germany and the cost was more than €8 the roll. So I looked for the first time an other alternative. I found Kentmere which is also Ilford, but there is no meddle format kentmere. Then I descovered Fomapan and now I am almost 100% fomapan.

What you experienced in South Germany is that prices are higher for some products because people there have higher income than in the North, especially in the areas close to the border to Switzerland. Also comparing prices for niche products like film, a small city (Freiburg) vs a big city (Hamburg) might make some difference.

 

[mnemosyne]

What I find interesting is that it is almost impossible to find more affordable film negatives in local photography shops, such as Fomapan.

You must understand that it makes no sense for a local photo shop to order a product that his distributor does not list. Even if you promised to buy 50 EUR worth of film from him every month, the cost and labor involved to get a product that has to be custom ordered from a different source with which he has no business relation is a major PITA and he will not make a penny on it unless he would price it like Ilford film and this wouldn't make sense. Unlike Ilford, Foma does not have a powerful distributor in Germany. Most photo/camera shops here are experiencing tough times as it is. The major photo house in my town with half a dozen branch shops in the wider area just went into bankruptcy and closed.