ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology : SFX Film / ULF Film / New Prods

Bob Carnie · Jun 19, 2006

Simon R Galley said:
Dear Bob,

no no no no no no no...noooooooooooo

I hear you had another vistor the other day !!!!! now 4 out of 6 including the Grande Fromage

Kind Regards

Simon.

Unfortunately I was basking in the sun at the cottage , but Kevin said he was a decent bloke.
How did the expense sheet on Kama Sutra go over.
Are you sure on the Ilfomar?

Earl Dunbar · Jun 19, 2006

Bob: I don't get the references (visitor, etc.,) but I add my request for Ilfomar. I know Simon has said no in every regional UK dialect and accent, it's just that when I was poor and living in London, ON, I remember Harry Cooke at Stan C. Reade advising me to stock up, freeze it, etc., when end of production was announced.

This was before any bottles had refunds for deposit, otherwise I would have scavanged all of Middlesex county and disguised as a photographer, er ... street person. Robbing a TD, Canada Trust or other similar institution just wouldn't have looked good on my resume, as I was working with an inter-denominational ministry service at UWO at the time. So my paper buying was MARed to say the least, i.e., I didn't buy any significant quantity.

Looking back, I probably should have taken the chance.

Earl

Petzi · Jun 19, 2006

Couldn't you just use Galerie?

Bob Carnie · Jun 19, 2006

Petzi said:
Couldn't you just use Galerie?

Hi Petzi

Ilfords, Ilfomar in my humble experience was the best paper ever made . I am speaking from my roots to 1973. Before that I heard Cycora was legendary. I use Gallerie , Warmtone and MG4 .

Ok Simon maybe I have opened a can of worms here, my apologys.

Les McLean · Jun 19, 2006

Now if the proposed Cooltone paper looked and handled a bit like Brovira.................... better keep quiet I may get into trouble

Rombo · Jun 19, 2006

I would like to have SFX in 120 format.
If Ilford launch DELTA 25 I would buy 35 and 120.

Black Dog · Jun 19, 2006

I'd love SFX in 120, also Delta 3200 sheet (RIP Royal X) and Delta 25. I'd give Cooltone FB a blast as well

Simon R Galley · Jun 20, 2006

Dear Bob,

My expenses got paid...I just had to present them on 42 different occasions...

Simon.

unregistered · Jun 20, 2006

I wish there was more discussion of the possibility of a wider variety of papers coming out from Ilford.

Thomas Bertilsson · Jun 20, 2006

I like SFX quite a bit, and may experiment with it in the future. What sounds really intriguing to me is Delta 25. I would purchase mainly 35mm and maybe 120. Sheet film? I already love FP4+ too much and grain doesn't matter. But something that's even finer grain than Delta 100 would be awesome, and that doesn't scratch like Efke 25...

Thanks for the initiatives.

- Thom

Simon R Galley · Jun 21, 2006

Dear Alexis,

I think a wider debate at present is premature, we have announced a project for a Cooltone FB and we have been working hard on launching mono papers for laser exposure for commercial and ART printing applications , with the range we have now, more products than any other monochrome manufacturer, we would need to be convinced of the viability of other paper products, as an FYI we have also taken note of a wish for a 'whiter base' version of MULTIGRADE FB WARMTONE, but no project exists for this at this time.

Kind Regards

Simon : ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited

unregistered · Jun 21, 2006

Simon R Galley said:
Dear Alexis,

I think a wider debate at present is premature, we have announced a project for a Cooltone FB and we have been working hard on launching mono papers for laser exposure for commercial and ART printing applications , with the range we have now, more products than any other monochrome manufacturer, we would need to be convinced of the viability of other paper products, as an FYI we have also taken note of a wish for a 'whiter base' version of MULTIGRADE FB WARMTONE, but no project exists for this at this time.

Kind Regards

Simon : ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited

Simon,

Thanks for the reply. I'm unsure of your claim to have more papers than any other manufacturer though, especially in the fiber arena, since Bergger and Kentmere both have more versions than Ilford. However, I don't mean to nitpick.

I guess what I'm suggesting, and given the numerous posts on a variety of forums about such papers, is that any manufacturer who introduced/re-introduced papers that have been discontinued by other manufacturers would do quite well with them. A few of the examples are Agfa's Portregia and Kodaks Ektalure. Now of course you can't make them exactly like the originals and I'm not suggesting you do (although if Ilford could buy the formula's and make the original products again, you certainly could sell quite a lot), but both papers had such specific characteristics, and were appreciated for such, that introducing a line of fiber papers (I have no interest in RC at all) with similar properties would sell quite well. The ability of those papers to produce a wide variety of printing styles and toning color pallettes was amazing, and as a professional printer, I am always appreciative of papers that can offer more than just the garden variety of B&W tonal range and surfaces. Having that truly opens the doors to a much more expressive way to present B&W images, and I think both amateurs and professionals alike not only are better served by this, but also appreciate the extra creativity that having that wide a range of expressive options allows.

Although it doesn't affect me, I can see your interest in tapping into the market vacated by Agfa, with its laser paper for Lambda exposure units. Dupon, in Paris...where I worked for a bit, used Agfa's paper quite a bit, and I know that their business has been hurt by not being able to have that service, so you will fill that niche. But I still think offering more in the way of fiber papers would suit your company well. Being a huge user of Ilfords FB MG paper, up until the release of MGIV, I have always felt Ilford provided a good product (personally I feel MGIV was a step backwards in what was an excellent product). And now with the resurrected/restructured Ilford, offering papers that would be unique in the market would be very profitable and would make Ilford stand out further in the market today.

But that is just my $.02 worth and I am basing it on my 25+ years of professional printing experience.

Les McLean · Jun 21, 2006

Alexis Neel said:
Simon,

I guess what I'm suggesting, and given the numerous posts on a variety of forums about such papers, is that any manufacturer who introduced/re-introduced papers that have been discontinued by other manufacturers would do quite well with them. A few of the examples are Agfa's Portregia and Kodaks Ektalure. Now of course you can't make them exactly like the originals and I'm not suggesting you do (although if Ilford could buy the formula's and make the original products again, you certainly could sell quite a lot), but both papers had such specific characteristics, and were appreciated for such, that introducing a line of fiber papers .......

While this is a nice thought Alex the problem is that the papers you mention contained Cadmium which manufacturers cannot use these days. I know that Kodak did try to reproduce Ektalure with a non cadmium "look alike" and abandoned the project as being impossible to achieve. I know this because I was given some of the Ektalure test batch to try and it was a very poor product compared to the original.

unregistered · Jun 21, 2006

Les McLean said:
While this is a nice thought Alex the problem is that the papers you mention contained Cadmium which manufacturers cannot use these days. I know that Kodak did try to reproduce Ektalure with a non cadmium "look alike" and abandoned the project as being impossible to achieve. I know this because I was given some of the Ektalure test batch to try and it was a very poor product compared to the original.

Yes Les, I tested the same stuff. And it did suck. Ektalure had other properties that made it special and a wonderful paper though. And Portregia didn't have it in the last incarnation of their paper.

I guess I was just making a suggestion since 1)they seem to be listening to customers, 2) actually posting a suggestion request, and 3) offering an idea to broaden their "footprint" in the market. While there are a lot of nice papers out there, none really set themselves apart from the crowd like the 2 examples I used (and there are others), and I had hopes that a company would venture into that market on the paper side...especially one seemingly interested in the film market (and you need paper to print all that film on).

Oh, and by the way, its Alexis, not Alex

Les McLean · Jun 21, 2006

Alexis Neel said:
Oh, and by the way, its Alexis, not Alex

Sorry Alexis.

unregistered · Jun 21, 2006

No problem, sport.

Simon R Galley · Jun 22, 2006

Dear Alexis,

I do see your point, especially having slogged around the streets of London in the early 90's on behalf of ILFORD hearing " ah yes mate, but if you only made a product like Record Rapid'. I do realise the affection in which many of these fine papers were held, but two major issues, 1) Whilst you can do a great deal with formulations, many of the raw materials ( like certain bases ) are just no longer available, also all coating machines are different, and with very different coating characteristics which do affect the final product 2) The biggy, monochrome paper Worldwide is still declining, we would not wish to dilute our sales amongst a 'much' increased range, with all the SKU and stock implications that would entail and the higher waste of coating smaller volumes that would push up prices.

Our key message is one of maintaining choice, we really do believe that, if we did'nt ILFOBROM GALERIE would probably not have been coated again, and where we do see a serious gap or a growth dimension we will make new products, hence our keen interest in these forums and the opinions of those who contribute and have years of experience.

Kind Regards

Simon.

unregistered · Jun 22, 2006

Thanks Simon for taking the time to answer. You make valid points and I can only hope that you and Ilford will see an increase in paper sales that would justify adding to your product line in the future.

Tom Kershaw · Jun 22, 2006

Simon,

I understand (as best I can) your position as regards to your products. You make some excellent stuff, and I can appreciate the situation, i.e. if you introduce Delta 25 I might buy less Delta 100 etc.

Please do what is viable. I think it suites my own interests better to have a stable, profitable ILFORD rather than a producer of niche products. It's the difference between want and need. IMHO

braxus · Jun 23, 2006

I would love for Ilford to produce a Delta 25 film. Make it available in 120 and 4x5 as well as 35mm. Give it the sharpness of Panatomic X as a bare minimum. At least 200 lines per mm. I would also want an old style tonal range to it, something like Efke 25 (but panchromatic) or Pan X. I do not like what films like TMax do to pictures with people in it.

gnashings · Jun 25, 2006

Simon,

While I understand the paper issue (and in fact, think very highly of all your efforts), I think the Delta 25 would be a different story. I don't mean to imply that I know the effort involved in bringing it about, but I am referring to the universal appeal of it to traditional photographers and the fact that it would not displace any sales from your current line. There is nothing that advanced, that fine and that slow on the market right now. Rolls of TechPan usually yield a kidney, a liver and a first born at auction. Efke 25 will always be a different animal (and will remain loved I am sure), but I think a few dollars now going to Efke would also find its way into Iflord coffers. I don't think PanF will be affected any more than FP4+ is affected by Delta 100. The glowing, maniacal eyes and drool everywhere that invariably accompanies any mention of this film makes me think it would be a best seller for you for a long time. Most people I know who shoot film get excited at the very notion, and even some digital people seem very intrigued with the idea once the potential capabilities of this film are explained to them.
My highly un-scientific "market research" points to this film as being a really, really good idea for Ilford - and certainly for all of us who would buy it by the bushell!
Quite frankly, I have not seen a traditional photography product that has created such a stirr in a long, long time! There is definitely a "buzz" - so that part is done - now you have to put the product on the shelves!

Sincerely,

Peter.

Markok765 · Jun 25, 2006

Who needs so fine grain that they would need a T-grained 25 speed film? mabye minox photographers

gnashings · Jun 25, 2006

Ah, Marko - you have SO much to see... I am a guy who likes grain quite a bit - there is so much to do with a film like this!
Shoot some more, develop some more and most of all - print some nice big shots. There is more to it than just grain. Again, its a case of the right tool for the job - and until you see the look you can get from a nice, slow film with super fine grain and great tonality, you won't know what I mean.
And this is coming from a guy who frequently throws TriX and HP5+ into Rodinal - even in 35mm. I guatantee you that you will be on this very forum screaming the praises of this film should it ever happen and should you get your hands on some. Trust me, its a good thing.

Peter.

unregistered · Jun 25, 2006

gnashings said:
Simon,

While I understand the paper issue (and in fact, think very highly of all your efforts), I think the Delta 25 would be a different story. I don't mean to imply that I know the effort involved in bringing it about, but I am referring to the universal appeal of it to traditional photographers and the fact that it would not displace any sales from your current line. There is nothing that advanced, that fine and that slow on the market right now. Rolls of TechPan usually yield a kidney, a liver and a first born at auction. Efke 25 will always be a different animal (and will remain loved I am sure), but I think a few dollars now going to Efke would also find its way into Iflord coffers. I don't think PanF will be affected any more than FP4+ is affected by Delta 100. The glowing, maniacal eyes and drool everywhere that invariably accompanies any mention of this film makes me think it would be a best seller for you for a long time. Most people I know who shoot film get excited at the very notion, and even some digital people seem very intrigued with the idea once the potential capabilities of this film are explained to them.
My highly un-scientific "market research" points to this film as being a really, really good idea for Ilford - and certainly for all of us who would buy it by the bushell!
Quite frankly, I have not seen a traditional photography product that has created such a stirr in a long, long time! There is definitely a "buzz" - so that part is done - now you have to put the product on the shelves!

Sincerely,

Peter.

I guess I don't get it. Are you planning on shooting 35mm and doing mural printing and you want as little grain as possible? It really seems redundent...t-grain slow speed film.

"get from a nice, slow film with super fine grain and great tonality,"

S good slow film usually has fine grain and great tonality already. And unless you plan on going over 20x24 from 35mm, I doubt you'll see any difference.

srs5694 · Jun 25, 2006

Markok765 said:
Who needs so fine grain that they would need a T-grained 25 speed film? mabye minox photographers

It's not all about grain. Yes, I'd expect Delta 25, if and when it's ever produced, to be a very fine-grained product, but that wouldn't be its only characteristic. The feature that has me following talk of this film is simply its low speed. I didn't really "get" low-speed films until fairly recently, but then I shot a roll of Efke KB25 and I realized that I had much better control over depth of field in daylight conditions with that film than with any other. This is obvious, and if I'd bothered to think about it for ten seconds I'd have realized this 25 years ago -- but at that time I was more interested in existing light (indoor) photography and long lenses, rather than the outdoor photography with wider lenses that dominates what I do today.

That said, for just low speed, Efke KB25 does the job right now, and even Pan F+ is pretty good in this respect, although it's a stop faster. I'd like to see an Ilford Delta 25 for a couple of reasons, though. First, it's always good to have choices and a backup product. If Efke KB25 disappears from the market, having Delta 25 will be important. Second, the Delta 25 and KB25 will likely differ in tonality, acutance, and other features, and as a result it's likely that Delta 25 will be a better choice for some types of photography. KB25 is orthopanchromatic, for instance, whereas I'd assume Delta 25 will be panchromatic.

ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology : SFX Film / ULF Film / New Prods

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