Ilford MGIV & Warmtone (MGWT), a discussion...

[brian steinberger]

I would also be interested to hear what your favorite developers are for MGWT.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Replenished Ethol LPD. But you knew I'd say that. My negatives are made to suit that combination very well.

I have dabbled with 130, Ilford Multigrade, Dektol, 120, and VersaPrint II.
VersaPrint II is brilliant (glycin) but very expensive. 130 is good, and I honestly don't know why I stopped using it. 120 is too soft. Dektol and MG has too much contrast.

 

[PVia]

LPD and 130 are awesome developers for most every paper...

 

[nworth]

D-52 is not bad. 130 is a bit more neutral, but also very good.

 

[Sal Santamaura]

...On to the Moersch SE6 Blue... WOW!!! As soon as I turned the lights on I knew that was the developer for neutralizing MGWT. A wonderful neutral bluish color. Very cold, similar to a mild gold toning of MGWT. Some of the color is lost through washing, though not much. I also got around to selenium toning one of my wedges of MGWT in Blue. I was amazed. I toned for 6 minutes in Kodak Selenium at the 1:19 dilution. The paper acted much like MGIV, not turning a brownish-purple in the shadows, but rather simply cooling off even more and losing the slight tinge of green from it's blue. The blacks stayed cold! I was very impressed! Next I'm going to try the 1:9 dilution and see if it cools off even more, or gives a cold purple to the shadows. Overall I would have to say that Moersch Blue is the cold-tone developer that will cool off MGWT.

I have attached scans of MGWT in Blue un-toned, as well as MGWT in Blue & selenium toned. I have also included a scan of a wedge of MGWT in PF130 1:1 for comparison in tone.

Brian, I just reviewed this entire thread after having the same question about cooling off MGWT. Have you, or anyone else reading this, tried MGWT in Moersch SE3?

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/01192...orbic-Acid-BandW-Paper-Developer-2-x-500ml-to

I'm not seeking the blue tone you were, just a neutral image color (that might give a hint of purple in selenium). The long-discontinued Agfa Neutol NE was also an ascorbic-based developer that gave me dead-neutral images with almost any paper. Moersch SE3 holds the promise of similar results, plus perhaps better keeping because it's in two separate bottles. All feedback welcome; thanks in advance.

 

[zsas]

I have not used Moresch but have gold toned which could be around the same price as Moresch at the end of the day (1 gram of gold chloride can be bought for $50, Moresch I think is $30ish - not sure the capacity of each but gold tone and MGWT are stellar). I have considered going Moresch then selenium and knocking out the gold tone but Miresch doesn't look to go as far as what I currently use (Liquidol).

 

[brian steinberger]

Brian, I just reviewed this entire thread after having the same question about cooling off MGWT. Have you, or anyone else reading this, tried MGWT in Moersch SE3?

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/01192...orbic-Acid-BandW-Paper-Developer-2-x-500ml-to

I'm not seeking the blue tone you were, just a neutral image color (that might give a hint of purple in selenium). The long-discontinued Agfa Neutol NE was also an ascorbic-based developer that gave me dead-neutral images with almost any paper. Moersch SE3 holds the promise of similar results, plus perhaps better keeping because it's in two separate bottles. All feedback welcome; thanks in advance.

Sal, no I have not used SE3. I would give 130 BZT a try. That's what I've been using with MGWT to cool it down. Omit the potassium bromide and up the carbonate slightly then add 15ml of a 1% solution of benzotriazole per liter of working developer. I develop 1:3 and develop for 2-3 minutes. It cools off MGWT and goes slightly purplish in selenium as you'd like. I thank Evan Clarke for this recommendation to me.

 

[Sal Santamaura]

I have not used Moresch but have gold toned which could be around the same price as Moresch at the end of the day (1 gram of gold chloride can be bought for $50, Moresch I think is $30ish - not sure the capacity of each but gold tone and MGWT are stellar). I have considered going Moresch then selenium and knocking out the gold tone but Miresch doesn't look to go as far as what I currently use (Liquidol).

If I understand correctly, you are currently developing in Liquidol, which is advertised as "improved Dektol," then gold toning. That implies that the MGWT tone straight out of Liquidol wouldn't be sufficiently cooled if only toned in selenium, thus your use of gold.

Also, you've considered developing in SE3 instead of Liquidol, expecting a more neutral result and thus an ability to tone in the less expensive selenium, but you haven't done so because the capacity of SE3 is less than that of Liquidol. Do I have all that right? Thanks again!

 

[Sal Santamaura]

Sal, no I have not used SE3. I would give 130 BZT a try. That's what I've been using with MGWT to cool it down. Omit the potassium bromide and up the carbonate slightly then add 15ml of a 1% solution of benzotriazole per liter of working developer. I develop 1:3 and develop for 2-3 minutes. It cools off MGWT and goes slightly purplish in selenium as you'd like. I thank Evan Clarke for this recommendation to me.

I assume by "130 BZT" you're referring to the variation of Ansco 130

Water (125 degrees F) . . . . . . . . . . . . . 750 ml
Metol . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2.2 g
Sodium Sulfite (Anhydrous) . . . . . . . . . . . 50 g
Hydroquinone . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11 g
Sodium Carbonate (Monohydrate) . . . . . . 78 g
Potassium Bromide . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5.5 g
Glycin . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11 g
Cold Water to make . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 liter​

you've described. How much increased carbonate is "slightly?"

Given the cost of some components, I'm not sure I'll jump right into 130 BZT. Hopefully someone who has tried MGWT in SE3 will chime in. If not, and I don't roll the dice on SE3 myself, 130 BZT sounds like a good answer. Thanks again!

PS Any experience with glycin's keeping qualities?

 

[zsas]

That is exactly my thinking! Liquidol is very high capacity and cold toned (but not as cold as say Moresch and the discontinued Ilford Cooltone Dev). So my approach (which mind you could be quite flawed) is dev in Liquidol (free ship too from Amazon) then tone in T26 (which some call Clerc's):

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/g23/g23.pdf

 

[Sal Santamaura]

That is exactly my thinking! Liquidol is very high capacity and cold toned (but not as cold as say Moresch and the discontinued Ilford Cooltone Dev)...

When you indicate that Liquidol is not as cold as Moersch, which Moersch are you referring to? Earlier in this thread, Brian reported results with SE6 Blue. Is that the "cold standard" to which you're comparing Liquidol?

Also, I can't find anything on-line about the capacity or shelf life of SE3. What does the Liquidol technical information say about those parameters?

 

[zsas]

Edit - the Moresch I meant above is SE6, not SE3.....so I guess if your are trying to avoid that hint of blue....gold might not be for you, but gold then selenium might get that too ??

SE6
http://www.freestylephoto.biz/011920-Moersch-SE6-Cold-Blue-Black-Paper-Developer-1-Liter?cat_id=301

 

[brian steinberger]

I assume by "130 BZT" you're referring to the variation of Ansco 130

Water (125 degrees F) . . . . . . . . . . . . . 750 ml
Metol . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2.2 g
Sodium Sulfite (Anhydrous) . . . . . . . . . . . 50 g
Hydroquinone . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11 g
Sodium Carbonate (Monohydrate) . . . . . . 78 g
Potassium Bromide . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5.5 g
Glycin . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11 g
Cold Water to make . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 liter​

you've described. How much increased carbonate is "slightly?"

Given the cost of some components, I'm not sure I'll jump right into 130 BZT. Hopefully someone who has tried MGWT in SE3 will chime in. If not, and I don't roll the dice on SE3 myself, 130 BZT sounds like a good answer. Thanks again!

PS Any experience with glycin's keeping qualities?

Sal, the difference in the BZT formula is upping the Sodium Carbonate (mono) to 98g, and omitting the potassium bromide and replacing with 15ml of 1% solution of benzoltriazole per liter of working developer. So the corrected formula would be:

Water (125 degrees F) . . . . . . . . . . . . . 750 ml
Metol . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2.2 g
Sodium Sulfite (Anhydrous) . . . . . . . . . . . 50 g
Hydroquinone . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11 g
Sodium Carbonate (Monohydrate) . . . . . . 98 g
Glycin . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11 g
Cold Water to make . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 liter

Dilute 1:1 or 1:3 and add 15ml of 1% solution of benzoltriazole per liter of working developer. Develop 2-3 minutes. 3 minutes for coldest tones.

 

[eclarke]

80g of Sodium Carbonate anhydrous and 15 cc 1% benzotriazole/liter...This dev likes about 73 deg. and selenium tone 1+9 68 deg...the temp makes a difference..Evan Clarke

 

[brian steinberger]

80g of Sodium Carbonate anhydrous and 15 cc 1% benzotriazole/liter...This dev likes about 73 deg. and selenium tone 1+9 68 deg...the temp makes a difference..Evan Clarke

or 98g of sodium carbonate (mono). Thanks Evan for clarification. I credit you for this recommendation to me.

 

[Sal Santamaura]

Brian...I'm not seeking the blue tone you were, just a neutral image color (that might give a hint of purple in selenium)...

Time for an update.

I read all the responses posted here and considered additional information Brian kindly shared via PM. At this stage, mixing raw chemicals isn't attractive, given my (lack of) facilities and time, so I decided to go with Moersch SE6 developer. While Brian used it at 1+10 and liked the blue results, I wanted to start with dead-neutral tones on MGWT FB, so diluted the concentrate further to 1+15, developing for 3 minutes. This was a complete success. After a full hour wash, prints dried without a hint of warm or cold color. Although expensive in the US, diluting 100 ml of SE6 with 1,500 ml of water means one bottle provides 10 8x10-tray-sessions-worth of developer, bringing cost per session into a reasonable range. Also, not by design, life interrupted my testing, so I loosely laid a sheet of plastic cling wrap over the developer tray. More than two days later, when printing could resume, simply removing the plastic sheet and picking up where I left off gave identical results. Cost is further mitigated by excellent tray life.

I made a number of identical prints to test toning. Following Evan's and Ilford's instructions, I toned them at 68 degrees F in Ilford/HARMAN selenium toner diluted 1+9, after a water presoak at 75 degrees F. The 2 minute 15 second toning time resulted in exactly what I was looking for.

I enthusiastically recommend Moersch SE6 developer for use with MGWT FB paper. Toned appropriately, prints from this combination are exquisite, with a surface gloss unmatched by MGIV FB. Thanks to everyone who contributed to this process of discovery.

 

[Richard Jepsen]

I've used Ilford's Warmtone papers for years...there's very few images it doesn't make look great (but that might just be my subjects and personal style). It tones really nicely too - I mostly use selenium (although at either 1:10 or 1:19) or a very mild sepia.

Their regular Multigrade FB is nice for neutral tones or subjects that don't need a slightly warmer look.

Ilford's MGWT's a great paper. I am currently testing ADOX Fine Print Variotone to MGWT. Variotone does not have the tonal range MGWT has. In other words MGWT has a longer spread of tones while ADOX is slightly less. Untoned prints from ADOX are cooler than MGWT. MGWT Dmax and tone improves after selenium toning. ADOX tones quickly (90 to 120s) in 1:15 selenium. ADOX can provide eggplant shadows and warmer midtones similar to the older Bergger/Oriental emulsions.

I like MGWT over MGIV because of better shadow detail and more complex tones. I wish MGIV paper base was heavier like EMAKS graded. In fact, I wish MGWT used EMAKS base paper support. If there was only one paper left I would be happy with MGWT.

 

[Bob Carnie]

I agree with Richard Ilford Warmtone is a great paper, I think the very best I have ever worked with.

I liked Agfa Classic, which I believe the new Adox is but always preferred Ilford Warmtone.
I have tested this paper against a lot of offerings and always gravitate towards it.

Ilford's MGWT's a great paper. I am currently testing ADOX Fine Print Variotone to MGWT. Variotone does not have the tonal range MGWT has. In other words MGWT has a longer spread of tones while ADOX is slightly less. Untoned prints from ADOX are cooler than MGWT. MGWT Dmax and tone improves after selenium toning. ADOX tones quickly (90 to 120s) in 1:15 selenium. ADOX can provide eggplant shadows and warmer midtones similar to the older Bergger/Oriental emulsions.

I like MGWT over MGIV because of better shadow detail and more complex tones. I wish MGIV paper base was heavier like EMAKS graded. In fact, I wish MGWT used EMAKS base paper support. If there was only one paper left I would be happy with MGWT.

 

[eclarke]

Since they started coating it on the white base, it is just terrific..Evan Clarke

 

[Tom Stanworth]

Expensive, but I agree it is the best all round paper on the market for depth and tonal range. In Eukobrom it is relatively neutral in tone too.

 

[brian steinberger]

Expensive, but I agree it is the best all round paper on the market for depth and tonal range. In Eukobrom it is relatively neutral in tone too.

Anyone know if Eukobrom is available in the US?

 

[brian steinberger]

Just wanted to update everyone on where I'm at with these two papers at this point, and hopefully generate more discussion here.

I'm now in the process of printing three images for a local land conservancy art auction next month. I've recently given up on 130 BZT that I was using. I compared prints from LPD and also 130 BZT on MGIV and determined the results were so close and actually found the LPD to be slightly colder on MGIV after a heavy selenium. LPD is a phenidone based developer with organic anti-fogging agents (benzotriazole, and who knows what else!) but the tone on MGIV at 1:3 dilution is fantastic after a heavy selenium toning of 6-8 minutes at 1:9. My first image was printed this way and I couldn't be happier with the results, cold charcoally tones.

Next image was just toned today. It was on MGWT and developed in LPD 1:3. My attempt was for a split tone, with black shadows and just a hint of yellow to the highlights. Must say, I know things need to be cut way back when toning MGWT but this was the most subtle toning I've done so far on MGWT. First selenium toned 1 1/2 minutes at 1:19. Just a hint of warmth to the shadows. Then hypo clear and long wash. Then a massively dilute bleach (1g of pot ferri and 1 g of pot bromide per liter) for only 25 seconds. Toned with a medium high amount of accelerator. Print looked great when wet, but as usual lost much of its color after drying. I also lost some highlight detail. At this point I'm rather frustrated with MGWT when it comes to split tones. The negative is still in the enlarger and I plan to re-print the same image in the next few nights on MGIV and attempt to split tone with selenium, sepia and maybe even a hit of gold.

Also, I ordered some Neutol WA from Freestyle to try with MGWT. Don't like to try new things all the time, but it's worth a shot.

 

[Sal Santamaura]

Today, while watching the ongoing train wreck in another thread, this post

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)​

caught my attention. Since Rodinal results in coarse grained negatives, and considering that it's fine grain which gives images warm tonality, has anyone tried developing MGWT FB in Rodinal to cool it? I won't be printing for a while, but plan to give that combination a test drive for the fun of it next time our bathroom becomes a temporary darkroom.

 

[TheToadMen]

Hi Sal,
Should be a nice experiment. The (very old) Rodinal ad I posted in that other thread mentioned a dilution of 1:40 for contact prints and 1:80 for enlargements.
Bert from Holland
http://thetoadmen.blogspot.nl

 

[Richard Jepsen]

WT is only equaled by ADOX Variotone Premium. The ADOX paper has a white base and readily tones. Ilford WT has open shadows and richer tonality than MG1V.

Ilford WT toned in KRST 1:15 does not get plummy shadows and oyster light tones like Bergger WT and Forte PWT. Those papers readily split toned in selenium.