Ilford Kentmere 200 (35mm, 120) coming soon...

[Andrew O'Neill]

This is excellent news! I'd be curious to see what its spectral response will be like...

 

[Prest_400]

Very interesting, I saw the leak elsewhere and was wondering when it would be commented here and so.

Harman Technology’s notes said: “Kentmere PAN 200 is an ISO 200 black-and-white film, with enhanced contrast (vs 100 and 400), pleasing, well controlled grain and good sharpness making it suitable for most shooting applications and conditions.”

Many users, bar exposure and processing factors, tend to tag Kentmere as low contrast. It appears as matching Foma's line up directly 1 to 1 and perhaps the specific of this film will be contrast. It's hard to gauge much with the small size samples in the Kosmofoto post anyways.
If it is released next week I might have time to grab some rolls for a trip.

 

[koraks]

Many users, bar exposure and processing factors, tend to tag Kentmere as low contrast. It appears as matching Foma's line up directly 1 to 1 and perhaps the specific of this film will be contrast.

Such comparisons I always find a little (or a lot) problematic, because of the 'bar exposure and processing' bit, which makes such a profound difference especially in B&W. So this makes me wonder what is meant with 'enhanced contrast' in the context of this particular new film. This is one of the reasons I'd like to see the datasheet, as it will undoubtedly clarify some of this.

 

[runswithsizzers]

[...]
Hey, actually, I would rather welcome a new(!!!) 200 speed film. Sure you can bend 100 or 400, but 200 is kind of a sweet spot for hand-holdability and (potentially) fine(ish) grain without the internet scaries of resorting to a T-grain 400 speed.
[...]

Totally agree. For my typical shooting conditions, metering at EI 160-200 most often gives me an aperture and shutter speed which I prefer. So the more choices I have for buying ISO 200 films, the better.

However, two questions remain to be answered:
1. Will I actually be able to use Kentmere 200 at box speed (or EI160) with my preferred developers, or am I going to need to rate it at 100 to get the shadow detail I want?
2. Will Kentmere 200 actually have noticeably less prominent grain than Kentmere 400 metered at EI200, in my preferred developers?

 

[Lachlan Young]

Such comparisons I always find a little (or a lot) problematic, because of the 'bar exposure and processing' bit, which makes such a profound difference especially in B&W. So this makes me wonder what is meant with 'enhanced contrast' in the context of this particular new film. This is one of the reasons I'd like to see the datasheet, as it will undoubtedly clarify some of this.

If it was engineered to deliver much more tightly controlled range/ ranges of monodispersity within its emulsion components (for other purposes - eg an emulsion component/ layer in C-41) it could potentially deliver apparently higher contrast (sharper toe/ shoulder for example) for a given average gradient, if that was an engineering aim. I have a strong suspicion that K200 is a fortuitous byproduct of other product research work.

 

[bernard_L]

A store in France has them on their site for preorder, here: https://www.digit-photo.com/KENTMERE-Pan-200ASA-135-36-poses-rKENTMERE6015055.html

Don't get carried over too fast. Here is what I see on that merchant site. The red banner reads : "Sorry, we don't sell this product anymore".

 

[Disconnekt]

Most likely they were told to take the page(s) down till its announced

 

[mshchem]

I will buy some for the pretty carton.

 

[Disconnekt]

Looks like Nik & Trick Photo in the UK has their order in for it

 

[Prest_400]

Such comparisons I always find a little (or a lot) problematic, because of the 'bar exposure and processing' bit, which makes such a profound difference especially in B&W. So this makes me wonder what is meant with 'enhanced contrast' in the context of this particular new film. This is one of the reasons I'd like to see the datasheet, as it will undoubtedly clarify some of this.

Of course. I am in contact with many newcomers through my local photo club and do see sometimes that there are some Social media derived trends and biases. Personally always tell people to check the datasheets as a starting point.
I consider myself relatively conservative, following the standard datasheet tips and traditional practice of getting a "good negative". Yes, film is cool and it is fun to experiment but eg. the "push in Rodinal get nice contrast and grain" will not be eventually be optimal.

Totally agree. For my typical shooting conditions, metering at EI 160-200 most often gives me an aperture and shutter speed which I prefer. So the more choices I have for buying ISO 200 films, the better.

Wholly agree about your questions. I am a medium format shooter and tend to think that speed is good and needed when I specially do handheld under the day. As a simplification, put on a Yellow filter and then it'll be EI100.

 

[loccdor]

What if it ends up being Kentmere 100 packaged with developing times for a 1 stop push?

 

[grain elevator]

What if it ends up being Kentmere 100 packaged with developing times for a 1 stop push?

I doubt Harman want to do this to their reputation, but if there has been a change in the marketing department, I suppose it's possible.
I don't see the need for a 200 speed film along with 100 and 400 unless it has characteristics other than speed that differ from the other offerings. Maybe it's designed to be a XX and FOmapan 200 replacement with an especially long straight line?

 

[koraks]

What if it ends up being Kentmere 100 packaged with developing times for a 1 stop push?

I really doubt it. To me, what @Lachlan Young suggested is the likely scenario - they were working on their C41 product and in the process, they made an emulsion they realized they could package as a B&W product in its own right. The high contrast is indeed a clue; this might for instance be the medium-speed emulsion for a C41 product.

Maybe it's designed to be a XX and FOmapan 200 replacement with an especially long straight line?

I wouldn't be surprised if it's actually very much non-linear by itself - much like what Phoenix presently is, too.

 

[pentaxuser]

What if it ends up being Kentmere 100 packaged with developing times for a 1 stop push?

That's close to being commercial fraud, isn't it?

pentaxuser

 

[loccdor]

Sorry to stir the pot. Just a thought I had, hopefully wrong.

 

[qqphot]

That's close to being commercial fraud, isn't it?

pentaxuser

I suppose, but given that seemingly half the B&W films on the market now are Aviphot with different advertised speeds, it's certainly not ucommon. I doubt that Ilford/Kentmere would do this, though.

When I need to use a slower speed because of old cameras with slow shutters, I usually just shoot HP5+ at 200, but other options would be nice too.

 

[koraks]

I doubt that Ilford/Kentmere would do this, though.

Well, they've marketed plain Phoenix 200 wound back-to-front into a cassette as "Harman Red 125". In that sense, I wouldn't put it past them. But I doubt they're going to push the envelope quite this far.

 

[mshchem]

Harman wouldn't do anything to harm it's standing as the preeminent supplier of black and white materials.

MHOFWIW

 

[pentaxuser]

Well, they've marketed plain Phoenix 200 wound back-to-front into a cassette as "Harman Red 125". In that sense, I wouldn't put it past them. But I doubt they're going to push the envelope quite this far.

It's good point you make. Clearly the ethos of the former Harman company who as ex Ilford execs were responsible for the buy-out and subsequent sale to Pemberstone has shown signs of change, IMO

pentaxuser

 

[koraks]

Clearly the ethos of the former Harman company who as ex Ilford execs were responsible for the buy-out and subsequent sale to Pemberstone has shown signs of change, IMO

The implied relationships between the financial structure and marketing choices, and relating those to ethos are IMO not evident in this case.

 

[thinkbrown]

Well, they've marketed plain Phoenix 200 wound back-to-front into a cassette as "Harman Red 125". In that sense, I wouldn't put it past them. But I doubt they're going to push the envelope quite this far.

I don't personally get it but some folks really like shooting red scaled film. Rather than having to go through a third party who's repackaging (e.g. lomography) and dealing with the quality control issues that brings, Harman is offering it directly.

They're perfectly up front about it being based on Phoenix in the description, so it doesn't seem fair to imply that they're deliberately misleading folks. They're producing a weird product that some small niche of people like. Kind of like the rest of film

 

[retina_restoration]

I expect there’s a significant difference between what gets distributed under the Harman brand, and what gets distributed under the Ilford brand name. Harman likely feels that it has more freedom to”play around” with products like “red scale”, whereas Ilford has brand integrity to maintain.

That said, I don’t see the point of adding a 200 ISO film to the Kentmere line, unless it has other properties that make it significantly different from the other two speeds.

 

[pentaxuser]

The implied relationships between the financial structure and marketing choices, and relating those to ethos are IMO not evident in this case.

I was implying that I suspect that in the days of the post management buy-out by ex Ilford execs who called themselves Harman, fewer people here might have suspected them of doing what you state in #42. I also suspect that what we call marketing into which Harman Red 125 seems to fall would have been seen as "dubious practice" by a lot more people

However now that I have tried to explain myself in relation to your statement above, we may simply differ in what in how we view the rights and wrongs of "business ethos"

pentaxuser

 

[koraks]

My comment is about the implied causality. I understand you might think what you think, but I don't see evidence that proves it. As far as I'm concerned, it's pure conjecture.

 

[MattKing]

We here on Photrio are in a tiny corner of the internet universe that shares the strange belief that the nature of the film comes from things like the emulsion science behind it, and its characteristic curve, and the manufacturers datasheet information.
We don't buy nearly enough film to allow the film industry to exist.
Most film is purchased as a result of marketing - the packaging and product use suggestions being as or more important than that which one finds in the box.
Harman Red 125 is a response to that reality.
I spent a few years working in retail during the heyday of film, and was able to offer to customers a fairly wide variety of film and photo-finishing products, at a wide variety of prices. Lots of people bought the higher priced Kodachrome which included top of the line Kodak processing. Even more bought the really mediocre store-brand colour negative film (manufactured by GAF) and the even more mediocre low priced but quick photofinishing we offered. In other words, there were lots of different needs being serviced in the industry, even back then.
Harman has merely taken steps to serve more of the market with what happens to appeal to the market. They did that in two ways. They offer Kentmere products, and their marketing materials emphasize that despite the relatively low price, the Kentmere branded products are made with the same quality control and on the same equipment and by the same people as their Ilford branded products.
Harman also has started offering more Harman branded products. They are being honest about the characteristics of those products, and that they are currently better suited to the adventurous.
The original Ilford product line materials and the business behind them seem relatively unchanged since the change in the group that owns Harman. What does seem changed is the interest in expanding outside the market served by the Ilford branded products. Such expansion is likely necessary for the continued survival of all parts of the Harman business - something that would be unlikely if Harman decided to rely only on the rapidly aging "old guard".