Ilford Galerie FB Grade 2 paper discontinued?

[RalphLambrecht]

Once you discount all the hoodoo, alchemy, and "the feels", all of us, buying one 50 sheet box of grade 2 Galerie per year is not enough to keep Ilford/Harman making this paper.

that is more to the point!

 

[Oren Grad]

Mike, it makes little sense to order both MG Classic and MGWT. Warmtone will do anything Classic can, and do it better.

Huh? They have very different characteristic curves. Negatives that fall easily on to one are a struggle on the other. For some of us, curve match with our negatives is the most important attribute of a paper.

 

[Lachlan Young]

Once you discount all the hoodoo, alchemy, and "the feels", all of us, buying one 50 sheet box of grade 2 Galerie per year is not enough to keep Ilford/Harman making this paper.

Exactly - and even for those of use who do use quite a lot of paper every year, only a tiny amount is fixed grade - variable contrast invariably does a better job with a wider variety of negatives.

 

[Loren Sattler]

I disagree with Drew. I love both papers in fiber base: Ilford WT and Classic. The Classic offers a substantial improvement over the MGIV fiber product, less dry down and nicer look. Why go through unnecessary manipulations....both products work wonderfully well right out of box with 2 minutes development in LPD or Dektol. However, I will offer that I very seldom tone my prints. I have not tried Cooltone.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Both Classic and MGWT have a lot of wiggle room for bagging any "reasonable" film curve, esp compared to even the best graded papers. In fact, lately I've reprinted quite a few early 4X5 that were less than ideally processed when I first started out, were hell to print back then, but quite easy now. It's amazing what true split printing will allow you to bag too, although I rarely need to go to that full extreme. How these two papers mainly differ, for me at least, is the significantly bigger punch
(density range) of MGWT vs Classic if you need it, as well as richer toning potential. Just this week I've drymounted images from six different Ilford papers: MGIV (the least versatile or deluxe in my opinion, Ilfobrom Galerie, MGWT, MGCT, MG Classic, and even Kentmere Fineprint VC (also once related to Ilford), plus other brands of paper like Polygrade V. Print color is very important to me - one shoe does not fit every image. I always tone, frequently multi-tone, but for sake of nuance;
I don't care much for over-the-top artsy-craftsy effects.

 

[Bill Burk]

Darkroom played tricks on me today as I tried to use some MGIV as Galerie 2.

It’s more sensitive (faster) and that threw me off when I tried to compare wet scales. I concluded by mistake that the scale was longer with no filter. So then I tried a 2 1/2 filter. The result was more contrast than I wanted. I accidentally picked f/11 instead of 16 for a print. Rookie mistakes, but I am not accustomed to changing filters and f/stops. I don’t have a good comparison yet.

I am sure I could make it work if I have to, but today’s test was a waste of time. (Except I know what mistakes to watch for.)

 

[Bill Burk]

And the negative I picked looks better printed on Grade 3 anyway... so I will have to try this another day, with another negative.

 

[DREW WILEY]

I just did my first batches of Bergger Prestige Neutral Tone. Both my amidol formula and MQ cold tone formula (plus gold toning in each case) gave me a superb DMax and neutral black. No reason now to go back to Ilford graded. The only cons I've detected is that this particular Bergger paper doesn't respond well to selective bleaching (you'll see a yellowish stain in bleached areas, much like Fineprint), and it has some distinct drydown just like every other paper except Ilfobrom Galerie.
So it's one product that competes well against Ilford MG Cooltone, though they are different enough to warrant keeping both on hand when cool image tone is desired. I have yet to make deliberately warm prints with it, though it takes to selenium like a duck to water. Good stuff.

 

[Ian Grant]

For the first time in well over 2 decades I've just bought Graded paper, two 50 sheet 20x16 boxes of Kodak Elite Gd 3 and a pack of 20x16 Bergger Prestige Gd 3, there's also 4 sheets of MCC as well (same size) with some off cuts for tests strips but I'll only use this to make extra prints already made on the same paper.

With only one Grade I'm back to the ID-3 (D165/Selectol Soft, Adaptol) route, I've decided to mix a PQ version of ID-14 if I need extra contrast.

No-one in this thread has mentioned the other thread on the possible discontinuation of GAlerie Gd 2 only a couple of weeks r so earlier, Ilford/Harman replied with a link to their website which still listed Gd 2. About 30 years ago I was looking to switch papers tried Galerie and while I liked it it wasn't quite what I wanted, I really liked Kentona Kentmere's Warm tone paper but they'd just cut the grade range to Gd 2 and Gd 3, I went for Record Rapid instead and when that was dropped MCC. Eventually Kentona was available in only one Grade and we all knew that was its end.

I switched to Forte Polywarmtone after Agfa pulled out, I'm still printing on paper from the last coating run. Polywarmtone was probably the best warm tone MG paper ever made, there's no substitute,

Anyway it's back to older techniques

Ian

 

[Bill Burk]

Galerie is olive in Dektol 1:2 compared to neutral MG. MG seems to have the opposite effect of dry-down happening in the shadows. A dark solid actually opened up when it dried. (Dry-down normally relates to clear highlights going thud).

Even though I didn’t catch a proper D-max of Galerie 2, here is a graph of it superimposed on MG with no filter. Both toned in KRST 1:20 for a few minutes.

Almost a perfect match. This is with an Omega DII and Aristo grid. The teal/turquoise color obviously provides sufficient blue and green light. (I wondered if it was good for MG but now I am convinced it’s just right).

I always “knew” Galerie was somewhat “olive” and it’s easy to see when side by side.

It looks like Galerie could have kept going, though I suspect the shoulder is just about to break at 1.55

I shifted the x-axis 0.25. Obvious to me MG is “one stop faster” than Galerie. The funny arrows just show the inflection points where the two curves crossed back and forth since they are so close to each other.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Just because one paper seems slower than the other on your particular cold light does not mean someone else will have the same result with their gear. Image stain like pyro gives is also a factor. I find MGWT about a stop slower than most other papers, whether using a colorhead or my V54 blue-green cold light. But that Bergger Neutral Tone VC which I just tried was 3 stops faster !

 

[Jarin Blaschke]

As a pyrogallol user, I find the restriction of graded papers alarming.

Looks like Galerie G3, Fomabrom, Lodima... and that’s about it?

Maybe I need to start examining pyrocat developers....

 

[Jarin Blaschke]

Perhaps overall contrast is close, but a longer straighter response and better DMax are two pretty strong arguments for Galerie to me.

J

Galerie is olive in Dektol 1:2 compared to neutral MG. MG seems to have the opposite effect of dry-down happening in the shadows. A dark solid actually opened up when it dried. (Dry-down normally relates to clear highlights going thud).

Even though I didn’t catch a proper D-max of Galerie 2, here is a graph of it superimposed on MG with no filter. Both toned in KRST 1:20 for a few minutes.

Almost a perfect match. This is with an Omega DII and Aristo grid. The teal/turquoise color obviously provides sufficient blue and green light. (I wondered if it was good for MG but now I am convinced it’s just right).

I always “knew” Galerie was somewhat “olive” and it’s easy to see when side by side.

It looks like Galerie could have kept going, though I suspect the shoulder is just about to break at 1.55

I shifted the x-axis 0.25. Obvious to me MG is “one stop faster” than Galerie. The funny arrows just show the inflection points where the two curves crossed back and forth since they are so close to each other.

View attachment 211952

Perhaps contrast

 

[jim appleyard]

Maybe I need to start examining pyrocat developers....

It can be good stuff, but like everything else, opinions vary. I find it works very well with Fuji 400, sadly discontinued, but I have a stockpile. I've used it with APX 100 for many years, but I have to add a lot of contrast when printing and scanning. When I do this the mid tones are fantastic.

 

[DREW WILEY]

I primarily use PMK pyro, Jarin. Lots of people like pyrocat instead; but I still prefer pyrogallol. Never had a problem with any paper, either graded or VC, due to that; in fact, the pyro stain is an advantage. And there are currently certain VC papers with a both a higher DMax and longer scale than Galerie.

 

[chip j]

Drew, what are these VC papers?

 

[DREW WILEY]

Ilford MGWT, Bergger Prestige, Adox MCC. Remember, all papers need to be toned to achieve full DMax. If you want to see a graded paper with a very deep DMax, it would be Brilliant Bromide. But even the original Seagull G had a deeper DMax than Galerie. Of course, those papers are long gone. I'm not knocking Galerie. I've recently used some of it (Gr 3). It's a fine paper. But sooner or later, darkroom habits either evolve or go extinct. As long as I remember, some favorite film or paper
disappeared just about the time I truly became comfortable with it. Nothing is permanent but change. So I experiment with a lot of films and papers, just in case.

 

[jim appleyard]

As a pyrogallol user, I find the restriction of graded papers alarming.

Looks like Galerie G3, Fomabrom, Lodima... and that’s about it?

Maybe I need to start examining pyrocat developers....

One dev you should try is Jon Wimberly's WD2D+ available from the Formulary. I've gotten some superb negatives from it, but the agitation drives me nuts, it's every 15 seconds and my mind wanders.... WD2D uses pyrogallol and not pyrochatin which Sandy King's Pyrocat HD uses. Pyrocat HD us also a fine developer. I did a wedding and souped Tri-X in WD2D. The dress came out white with detail and the tux came out black with detail; very easy to print. Pyrocat uses a 1/min. agitation, much easier for me.

 

[Bill Burk]

Well, I don’t like the look of MGIV so will have to keep looking.

I don’t want a different look, at least I know I don’t want Warmtone.

I found one box of Galerie 2 which should get me by for a while.

 

[Lachlan Young]

Well, I don’t like the look of MGIV so will have to keep looking.

I don’t want a different look, at least I know I don’t want Warmtone.

I found one box of Galerie 2 which should get me by for a while.

I'd strongly suggest looking at Ilford's Multigrade Classic FB - vastly better than IV. Adox MC110 is also worth a shot.

 

[jim appleyard]

Photo Warehouse is selling a FB paper, but I know nothing of it. I don't know who makes out or if it's any good, but the price is reasonable. Perhaps others can chime in.

http://www.ultrafineonline.com/ulprfibava.html

 

[Bill Burk]

I've kept quiet about this deal until now because I was in progress buying.

There is a seller on eBay with one last box of 11x14 Galerie FB Grade 2.

I don't think I need any more now, but if someone out here does...

Shipping is high, but buy it now price is low and seller spent nearly that much to get it to me.

The paper is old (circa 2002) but good (I made some prints last night to check it).

 

[DREW WILEY]

There was a big pile of 11x14 and 8x10 Galerie at the local camera store not long ago. Those are smaller sizes than I generally use, and unless they were willing to give a liquidation deal on this, the boxes of paper were so old it would be a distinct risk. I'm getting better results with the current premium VC papers anyway. Now if the original Oriental Seagull graded or Brilliant Bromide were still available, that would certainly be a temptation.