Ilford Galerie FB Grade 2 paper discontinued?

[RalphLambrecht]

Sadly it appears that grade 3 is all that is available at the moment, and how long that will remain in production we don't know. The sales person at Mobberley this afternoon said that grade 2 was discontinued ~2 months ago, and she gave no reason. Does anyone have experience of both grades? I have used grade 2 alone over many years, and it would be helpful to know if the 2 grades are reasonably close on this paper.

grade 2 in one paper is never the same as grade 2 in another. You can't even rely on 'close. There is no other way than trying it out but, who knows; you may find another favourite.

 

[jim appleyard]

Slavich (Russia) makes graded FB papers, available from Amazon.

Did a search for "slavich photo paper" on Amazon and came up empty.

This may be of interest:
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/slavich-photo-paper-buyers-group.161944/#post-2129932

 

[chip j]

You're right. Maybe a victim of sanctions???...

 

[DREW WILEY]

Galerie is a bit odd compared to certain other classic and now long-gone graded papers. It needs to be developed longer, apples to apples, to get a decent DMax. But due to this oddity, it also seems to have less wiggle room for contrast interpretation. With Oriental Seagull G, I could do anything equivalent to Grades 2 to 4 by keeping just Grade 3 on hand, and by how long I developed it. It would come out with about the same image color and tone about the same. If you prematurely pull Galerie, it looks anemic; so you really need more than one grade on hand if your negatives vary significantly in contrast. And it won't go terribly far the other direction either, in terms of significantly higher contrast relative to posted paper grade. One more justification for VC papers. It's just that, at the moment, there aren't many VC options for a true cold tone. MG Cooltone is nice in amidol for a distinctly silvery look. But I sure miss the blue-black I could get with Polygrade V and a specific personal MQ tweak. I've got some Berrger Neutral Tone due to arrive in the next few days to see if it's similar or not.

 

[jim appleyard]

Question w/o meaning to do thread theft: I've never used the Beers formula, but I know basically how it works; mix the dev together with different amount of chems and you can change the contrast of the paper. Could you take Gallerie in grade 3 and get grade 2 with the proper Beers formula?

 

[adelorenzo]

IIRC under previous owners Ilford had made a commitment not to discontinue any products. So if they have cut this one that seems to be a change in direction for the company.

Quote from Simon Galley circa 2014:

As you know our whole marketing philosophy is to maintain all our ILFORD Photo product range in production...

 

[Lachlan Young]

IIRC under previous owners Ilford had made a commitment not to discontinue any products. So if they have cut this one that seems to be a change in direction for the company.

Quote from Simon Galley circa 2014:

As you know our whole marketing philosophy is to maintain all our ILFORD Photo product range in production...

Technically, it's not a product, but a variant of one - & it's probably on the borderline of it being worthwhile coating a batch that will sell adequately over a period of 18 months. There have been quite a few changes over the last decade or so (even in the Harman era) in terms of availability of certain sizes & finishes of papers - the Ilfospeed range was drastically shrunk, & most of the RC ranges apart from MGIV can't be had in bigger than 12x16 - which should tell you a lot about the amateur/ professional divide in paper choices.

A rough guess is that a minimum batch equates to at least 200 50 sheet boxes of 16x20 - which needs warehousing etc. If demand on other products is rising (HP5+ for example), then they need priority on the coating machine & valuable warehouse space. I don't doubt that if the MOQ was covered by a retailer or distributors, then they'd coat it. How many of you have used more than a few sheets of G2 in the last decade?

In any case, I'd rather have G4 Galerie if it was possible to do a custom coating run...

 

[Bill Burk]

It’s my main paper.

 

[DREW WILEY]

I think even the paper itself is different. When the last of that runs low, that might be the end entirely, if that point isn't already past. Reminds me of back when folks were complaining about certain sizes of Tech Pan being cut from the lineup. What they didn't know is that not only had warehouse stocks run out, but the last coating ever of Tech Pan had occurred a whole decade before and everything necessary was long gone. It needed a dedicated substrate too. I wouldn't get your hopes up about this. Stockpile if you must, if you even still can. I tend to just move on.

 

[kevs]

I felt sad when I heard the gorgeous dead matte version of Galerie was discontinued; Galerie split-tones so nicely in sulphide/selenium. Ah well... :\

How many of you have used more than a few sheets of G2 in the last decade?

I bought a 50-sheet box of G2 Galerie glossy when I was a student ten years ago; 46 sheets are still in my darkroom. Considering the amount of printmaking I do these days, it'll be there a few years more...

 

[Sal Santamaura]

...they need priority on...valuable warehouse space...

After Argonaught Holdings' redevelopment planning application was rejected in 2015, the last thing HARMAN needs to worry about is space.

 

[Lachlan Young]

It’s my main paper.

On average, how many sheets in what formats do you use in a 12-18 month period?

Galerie is a bit odd compared to certain other classic and now long-gone graded papers. It needs to be developed longer, apples to apples, to get a decent DMax. But due to this oddity, it also seems to have less wiggle room for contrast interpretation. With Oriental Seagull G, I could do anything equivalent to Grades 2 to 4 by keeping just Grade 3 on hand, and by how long I developed it. It would come out with about the same image color and tone about the same. If you prematurely pull Galerie, it looks anemic; so you really need more than one grade on hand if your negatives vary significantly in contrast. And it won't go terribly far the other direction either, in terms of significantly higher contrast relative to posted paper grade. One more justification for VC papers. It's just that, at the moment, there aren't many VC options for a true cold tone. MG Cooltone is nice in amidol for a distinctly silvery look. But I sure miss the blue-black I could get with Polygrade V and a specific personal MQ tweak. I've got some Berrger Neutral Tone due to arrive in the next few days to see if it's similar or not.

You might want to look into Moersch's 'Finisher Blue' - which can chill MGWT to near blue/black etc. It's PMT or similar restrainer I recall & can seriously cool off an emulsion if used in the right developer.

After Argonaught Holdings' redevelopment planning application was rejected in 2015, the last thing HARMAN needs to worry about is space.

Yes, but there are other bottlenecks - like what is probably a finite number of master roll 'coffins' & the circulation thereof from M14 to warehouse to finishing & back. It's not in their interests to have dead stock sitting for a year or more if they can shift the same acreage of HP5+ in weeks. Best long term answer might be if they were prepared to do a make on the same sort of basis as the ULF order as they'd not have stock sitting around.

 

[Ian Grant]

Galerie is a bit odd compared to certain other classic and now long-gone graded papers. It needs to be developed longer, apples to apples, to get a decent DMax. But due to this oddity, it also seems to have less wiggle room for contrast interpretation.

Have to disagree Galerie responds well to contrast controls that's one reason the Grades were further apart in terms of contrast than other papers. Ilford recommender Dr Beers variable contrast dveloper go as far as publishing the formula in their earlier datasheets. I kept ID-3 (same as Selectol Soft/D165 and Adaptol) and ID-14 (Press Contrast developer) on my darkroom shelf alongside PQ Universal when I used Galerie.

Ian

 

[Bob Carnie]

Technically, it's not a product, but a variant of one - & it's probably on the borderline of it being worthwhile coating a batch that will sell adequately over a period of 18 months. There have been quite a few changes over the last decade or so (even in the Harman era) in terms of availability of certain sizes & finishes of papers - the Ilfospeed range was drastically shrunk, & most of the RC ranges apart from MGIV can't be had in bigger than 12x16 - which should tell you a lot about the amateur/ professional divide in paper choices.

A rough guess is that a minimum batch equates to at least 200 50 sheet boxes of 16x20 - which needs warehousing etc. If demand on other products is rising (HP5+ for example), then they need priority on the coating machine & valuable warehouse space. I don't doubt that if the MOQ was covered by a retailer or distributors, then they'd coat it. How many of you have used more than a few sheets of G2 in the last decade?

In any case, I'd rather have G4 Galerie if it was possible to do a custom coating run...

The digital fibre paper I use is from what I have been told by the manufacture Galerie grade 4 with an extended red sensitivity, which makes one use it without safelight..

 

[Bob Carnie]

I can control contrast in PS to the Lambda paper .

 

[Lachlan Young]

The digital fibre paper I use is from what I have been told by the manufacture Galerie grade 4 with an extended red sensitivity, which makes one use it without safelight..

The stuff intrigues me enough to wonder about trying to acquire a 20" roll for regular darkroom exposure - I know how it behaves & looks from digital exposure, but I'd quite like to try it under a normal enlarger. The G4 contrast is unsurprising as that's probably the closest exposure scale to the average chromogenic paper, but the IR sensitisation of the Digital Galerie is more interesting - presumably to even out exposure across the RGB lasers etc? Kind of interested in seeing what directly exposing a colour neg to it would do...

 

[DREW WILEY]

Ian - you misunderstood my point. You're apparently referring to changing contrast via changing developers. That's like AA frequently did Dektol vs Selectol Soft. But I'm referring to significant contrast changes using simply differential timing in the same developer, without the image color suffering. Galerie allows a little of that, but has nowhere near the flexibility in that respect as Brilliant Bromide or Seagull G did. You could even snatch develop Brilliant with superb results. Galerie is anemic
if you try that. Don't misunderstand me - it's a great paper but not as versatile as certain others. It's also less responsive to toners. It will deepen in selenium or gold, but the kinds of blacks you get are more limited. I never cared much for that greenish-black ala Dektol look typical of AA's prints on Galerie, and generally use amidol myself plus GP-1 for a deep neutral black.

 

[Bill Burk]

On average, how many sheets in what formats do you use in a 12-18 month period?

A carton of 50 11x14 can last me a year.

 

[Ian Grant]

Ian - you misunderstood my point. You're apparently referring to changing contrast via changing developers. That's like AA frequently did Dektol vs Selectol Soft. But I'm referring to significant contrast changes using simply differential timing in the same developer, without the image color suffering. Galerie allows a little of that, but has nowhere near the flexibility in that respect as Brilliant Bromide or Seagull G did. You could even snatch develop Brilliant with superb results. Galerie is anemic if you try that. Don't misunderstand me - it's a great paper but not as versatile as certain others. It's also less responsive to toners. It will deepen in selenium or gold, but the kinds of blacks you get are more limited. I never cared much for that greenish-black ala Dektol look typical of AA's prints on Galerie, and generally use amidol myself plus GP-1 for a deep neutral black.

Drew, I didn't misunderstand. Bromide papers don't respond well to different exposures/development times to subtly change contrast, that's just as true for Galerie as it was for Ilfobrom, Kodak Bromide, etc.

I use development controls in terms of exposure and development quite frequently and they really come into their own with Warm tone papers, you can control warmth as well as contrast. It's better to use the Soft/Hard developer approach with graded Bromide papers, using ID-3 (same formula as Selectol Soft) or ID-14 instead of PQ Uninversal I could go up or down almost a complete grade by changing developer.

Yes some other Bromide papers might have a bit more tolerance to development time than Galerie but I've never seen it a an ideal option with these papers or seen it advocated either.

Ian.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Ian - try telling a few hundred of my bromide prints that they are incapable of such and such. Too late -they already did it !

 

[darkroommike]

Once you discount all the hoodoo, alchemy, and "the feels", all of us, buying one 50 sheet box of grade 2 Galerie per year is not enough to keep Ilford/Harman making this paper.

I had this discussion at school with another photographer today and his first reaction was "Oh no!" I then asked when the last time he actually went into the darkroom and made (using his workflow) a 16x20 print, from a large or medium format negative, Galerie paper, using an amidol developer, tray process, the selenium toned. He got a funny look on his face and stated he could not remember. I'll guess it's been more than ten years. And to be honest, for a FB 16x20, almost that for me.

For me that has to change. I'm ordering three boxes of Multigrade FB for Christmas. One each Cold Tone, Warm Tone, and Classic. Anyone want to make a recommendation for something else to try, available from B&H or Freestyle possibly?

p.s. I miss Ektalure, only wish I could have tried it in another surface but the G was OK once we came to terms about developer choice and processing. I came into serious printing at about the time all the really great classic papers were making their exit. I grew up on Polycontrast and Multigrade.

 

[chip j]

FOMA papers cost more, and they are intriguing.

 

[Sal Santamaura]

...Anyone want to make a recommendation for something else to try, available from B&H or Freestyle possibly?...

Yes. Adox MCC 110:

https://www.freestylephoto.biz/15682-Adox-Premium-MCC-110-VC-FB-8x10-25-Sheets-Glossy​

https://www.freestylephoto.biz/156142-Adox-Premium-MCC-110-VC-FB-11x14-25-Sheets-Glossy​

https://www.freestylephoto.biz/156162-Adox-Premium-MCC-110-VC-FB-16x20-25-Sheets-Glossy​

Try it in Adox MCC developer:

https://www.freestylephoto.biz/55630-Adox-MCC-Paper-Developer-1000-ml​

 

[K-G]

Yes. Adox MCC 110:

https://www.freestylephoto.biz/15682-Adox-Premium-MCC-110-VC-FB-8x10-25-Sheets-Glossy​

https://www.freestylephoto.biz/156142-Adox-Premium-MCC-110-VC-FB-11x14-25-Sheets-Glossy​

https://www.freestylephoto.biz/156162-Adox-Premium-MCC-110-VC-FB-16x20-25-Sheets-Glossy​

Try it in Adox MCC developer:

https://www.freestylephoto.biz/55630-Adox-MCC-Paper-Developer-1000-ml​

I agree . Adox MCC 110 and Adox MCC-developer is an excellent combination. I suppose the same goes with Adox MCC 112 ( semi matte ) .

Karl-Gustaf

 

[DREW WILEY]

Mike, it makes little sense to order both MG Classic and MGWT. Warmtone will do anything Classic can, and do it better. It's just more expensive. Classic is a nice paper if you want something semi-warm without a lot of ooomph. Cooltone stands on its own - lovely cool silvery tones with excellent highlight gradation and a good DMax (though not as deep as MGWT). One problem with both Classic and Cooltone is that you have to immerse them very quickly into each solution or they can go blotchy. I've resorted to prewetting them briefly, before going into the developer. MGWT has no such problem. MC-110 is also a nice premium paper, but more rigid in terms of final image color; it's hard to get rid of the purplish brown tone if you don't want it - nice for some images, not for others. I'm currently about to experiment with another premium brand of paper - Bergger.