Ilford FB paper washing question

[ediz7531]

Hi all,

I've been using Ilford's 5 + 10 + 5 wash method for their FB Glossy paper. I did a residual hypo test (photographer's formulary's), and found a definite yellow stain.
Curious about what I'm doing incorrectly. I'm using their rapid fixer at 1:4 for 1 minute, per instructions. I'm using a vertical print washer.

 

[mshchem]

Hi all,

I've been using Ilford's 5 + 10 + 5 wash method for their FB Glossy paper. I did a residual hypo test (photographer's formulary's), and found a definite yellow stain.
Curious about what I'm doing incorrectly. I'm using their rapid fixer at 1:4 for 1 minute, per instructions. I'm using a vertical print washer.

What is the temperature of your wash water? I use hypo clear (Kodak) for fiber base papers, and minimum of 20°C water temperature.

 

[koraks]

Out of curiosity, is the stain the same in different places on the sheet? I wonder whether the flow patterns in the vertical washer may have an effect.

What is the temperature of your wash water?

Good point!

 

[bedrof]

I've never heard that Ilford wash method can be applied to washing FB paper.

 

[koraks]

I've never heard that Ilford wash method can be applied to washing FB paper.

This is not the wash method that's often used for film. Ilford have a specific procedure that applies to FB paper: https://www.ilfordphoto.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Reducing-Wash-Water.pdf

FB Papers Fibre based papers require significantly more washing than RC papers. In this case it is possible to use ILFORD WASHAID to more effectively remove residual fixer. The sequence below will ensure optimum permanence of dish/tray processed FB prints.
• Fixation ILFORD RAPID FIXER (1+4) or HYPAM (1+4) 1min
• First wash Fresh, running water 5min
• ILFORD WASHAID (1+4) intermittent agitation 10min
• Final wash Fresh, running water 5min

For other situations such as machine processing of Fibre prints it may also be possible to incorporate a Wash aid step and reduced wash time, depending on your particular configuration.

Note: Use of an Archival print washer containing discrete slots for the paper will increase wash efficiency further and will allow a reduced flow rate than for example in a sink or tray.

 

[Nitroplait]

Are all chemistry and paper fresh/new? Are we talking about one stain or many?

 

[bedrof]

This is not the wash method that's often used for film. Ilford have a specific procedure that applies to FB paper: https://www.ilfordphoto.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Reducing-Wash-Water.pdf

Ah, I see, thank you.
Anyway, 5 min final wash in running water sounds too brief for an FB paper.

 

[JPD]

Ah, I see, thank you.
Anyway, 5 min final wash in running water sounds too brief for an FB paper.

It does. Even after a 10 minute washaid/HCA bath I would give the papers a wash in about 30 minutes in cool water (18-20º C).

 

[ediz7531]

What is the temperature of your wash water? I use hypo clear (Kodak) for fiber base papers, and minimum of 20°C water temperature.

It’s around 20C or oftentimes a little bit higher .

Out of curiosity, is the stain the same in different places on the sheet? I wonder whether the flow patterns in the vertical washer may have an effect.


Good point!

I’ll spot test other parts of the print tonight. Just did the one spot.

Are all chemistry and paper fresh/new? Are we talking about one stain or many?

Paper is pretty new. For the chemistry I err on the conservative side on the manufacturer’s capacity guidelines.



One thing I realized just now is that I don’t empty the print washer after the first 5 minute rinse before the HCA.

 

[ediz7531]

Ah, I see, thank you.
Anyway, 5 min final wash in running water sounds too brief for an FB paper.

It does. Even after a 10 minute washaid/HCA bath I would give the papers a wash in about 30 minutes in cool water (18-20º C).

I’m assuming the Ilford wash sequence is based on rigorous testing (?). I also RHT tested my film washing anyway and using their 5/10/20 film washing method gives me properly washed negatives.

 

[koraks]

One thing I realized just now is that I don’t empty the print washer after the first 5 minute rinse before the HCA.

This may make a real difference as the wash water from the first 5 minute rinse will be relatively heavily loaded with fixer. Depending on the rate of flow through the washer, this may carry over into the subsequent washes and have a significant impact.

 

[ediz7531]

This may make a real difference as the wash water from the first 5 minute rinse will be relatively heavily loaded with fixer. Depending on the rate of flow through the washer, this may carry over into the subsequent washes and have a significant impact.

Thank you. That’s one thing I will do differently next time.

Has anyone else done an RHT on Ilford’s wash sequence and gotten stain-free paper?

 

[ntenny]

Thank you. That’s one thing I will do differently next time.

Has anyone else done an RHT on Ilford’s wash sequence and gotten stain-free paper?

I have, using a vertical print washer (Paterson) but emptying in between. My blind guess would be that that’s the important difference.

-NT

 

[Rob Skeoch]

I stopped using a vertical washer and went back to large trays. I found the prints stuck to the dividers stopping any flow of water. If the prints were just floating in water it would be one thing, but mine were sticking to the panels and not washing properly.

 

[ediz7531]

I stopped using a vertical washer and went back to large trays. I found the prints stuck to the dividers stopping any flow of water. If the prints were just floating in water it would be one thing, but mine were sticking to the panels and not washing properly.

I haven’t noticed that being an issue. They seem to float merrily .

 

[ediz7531]

I have, using a vertical print washer (Paterson) but emptying in between. My blind guess would be that that’s the important difference.

-NT

Thank you .

 

[pentaxuser]

Ah, I see, thank you.
Anyway, 5 min final wash in running water sounds too brief for an FB paper.

The question that I always ask myself when a manufacturer's process is said to be insufficient to meet what it is supposed to do is:

Why does the manufacturer say this if having tested its procedure and found it to be faulty? I cannot see what advantage this gives Ilford if it stipulates a shorter wash than is necessary.

What I can see is only disadvantages to its reputation if it recommends a procedure that it knows to be faulty

pentaxuser

 

[bedrof]

The question that I always ask myself when a manufacturer's process is said to be insufficient to meet what it is supposed to do is:

Why does the manufacturer say this if having tested its procedure and found it to be faulty? I cannot see what advantage this gives Ilford if it stipulates a shorter wash than is necessary.

What I can see is only disadvantages to its reputation if it recommends a procedure that it knows to be faulty

pentaxuser

I see your point, but having nothing to support my opinion other than words of Ralph Lambrecht about residual fixer diffusion in wash water (Way beyond monochrome, 2nd edition), 5 min in running water feels to be too short. I would say that might be fine for RC paper for example, but I would not keep that timing for my FB prints.

 

[Elmarc]

Thank you. That’s one thing I will do differently next time.

Has anyone else done an RHT on Ilford’s wash sequence and gotten stain-free paper?

Yes, all my prints pass the RHT test using a slightly modified Ilford sequence. The first wash is normally for 10 minutes in flowing water with a change of water that accumulates in the tray at 5 minutes. Then 10 minutes in washaid with agitation as normal and finally a one hour wash in a Paterson vertical washer with a complete change of water at 30 minutes. All at 20c or a little more.

 

[Elmarc]

Yes, all my prints pass the RHT test using a slightly modified Ilford sequence. The first wash is normally for 10 minutes in flowing water with a change of water that accumulates in the tray at 5 minutes. Then 10 minutes in washaid with agitation as normal and finally a one hour wash in a Paterson vertical washer with a complete change of water at 30 minutes. All at 20c or a little more.

One thing I forgot to mention...In his book 'The Art of Enlarging', David Vestal recommends performing the RHT test in subdued light because the hypo test solution is actually light sensitive and may give incorrect readings. However, this may not be the cause but just a thought.

 

[brian steinberger]

One thing I forgot to mention...In his book 'The Art of Enlarging', David Vestal recommends performing the RHT test in subdued light because the hypo test solution is actually light sensitive and may give incorrect readings. However, this may not be the cause but just a thought.

This is correct. You have to look for any discoloration immediately after blotting the drop of RHT. If you don’t see any discoloration immediately you’re good to go. Light will darken the area after that time.

 

[brian steinberger]

I also found the ilford method way too short for me as well. I do a brief wash in a tray with siphon after fixer or toner. Then into hypo clear for 10 minutes. Then wash for 50 minutes in vertical washer. This passes the RHT for me every time.

 

[ediz7531]

Yes, all my prints pass the RHT test using a slightly modified Ilford sequence. The first wash is normally for 10 minutes in flowing water with a change of water that accumulates in the tray at 5 minutes. Then 10 minutes in washaid with agitation as normal and finally a one hour wash in a Paterson vertical washer with a complete change of water at 30 minutes. All at 20c or a little more.

This sounds like more than a slight modification

 

[Elmarc]

This sounds like more than a slight modification

The sequence is the same just with extended times and a couple of water changes. Not too much of a divergence.

 

[Doremus Scudder]

The first wash tray or washer needs to be emptied and refilled if it is to be used for the second wash.

The intermediate wash-aid step should be done in a separate tray with agitation using fresh solution.

The final wash needs fresh, running water.

Temperatures need to be close to 20°C

Times from Ilford are predicated on using very fresh fix and short fixing times. Exceeding either of these parameters will increase wash time.

If you are using a one-bath fixing regime, then your throughput capacity will be rather low: 10 8x10s per liter for "optimum permanence," or 40 8x10s per liter for "commercial" standards. This latter may be too generous.

If you exceed the 60-second fixing time with drain time or whatever, you'll need to wash longer.

If you tone, you'll need a much longer wash; Ilford says 30 minutes for the final wash after selenium toning.

If you keep getting stain with your RHT, and are using fresh reagent, doing the test in subdued light and reading the result after only two minutes, then you simply need to extend your wash times.

Personally, I use the old-fashioned Kodak sequence, but with a longer wash-aid step. I fix in less-concentrated rapid fixer using a two-bath fixing regime for 2-2.5 minutes per bath, then give an initial five to 10 minute wash (often longer, in a holding tray), then a 10-minute treatment in wash aid, and then a final wash for 30-60 minutes. Never a staining problem.

I don't like the short fixing times with the Ilford sequence, Keeping wet time in the fix to just 60 seconds with a two-bath regime and large prints is just not practical.

Best,

Doremus