Ilford FB MG dammaged roll paper from the factory

Serg Lavrenchuk · Dec 29, 2020

We had a very expensive experience this week.

Having an order to print and tone four 100+cm BW prints only after the dry mount press we found some very small scratches that were going over the whole print in al a line (sometimes continuous, sometimes disappearing and coming back again).

All prints had this scratch line in the same place from the side (about 30-40 cm) and going parallel to the side. Paper was 106 cm wide and 30m long roll. The client denied prints with idea that our AD52 auto-cutter made these with rollers.

We had to agree that we lose money at that time and reprinted the order. But the next time we cut paper from roll manually on the table. And then had the same - 4 prints exhibit the same kind of scratch along with the roll.

We think that Ilford while rolling the paper did that to the whole roll.
Bad thing is that we got 4 rolls of the same emulsion at one time...

If that is a new reality - that you could buy the scratched paper from the factory now and that would be only your own headache - we are just so unlucky?

Would like to add - one of the last rolls with Ilford surprised me with a "factory" diagonal rough cut made by hand with scissors.

AgX · Dec 29, 2020

As you already considered your roller cutter for the unexposed paper to be the cause, what makes you sure that the fault was not caused by your succeeding processing?
I assume there is some automation too.

Have you examined the artefact itself too? I know that is Ilford's task, but just out of curiosity...

Serg Lavrenchuk · Dec 29, 2020

No... processing was done in the tray..
Something like this:
Artifact looks like the scratch of mechanical rolling. But to our surprise not from rolling out but probably from rolling in.
I would try to make more images on other prints. Was too upset today when realized that it was not a one-time fault...

LimeyKeith · Dec 30, 2020

From experience I know that Ilford take the quality ot their products very seriously so I assume that you contacted them immediately you realised that there was a problem?

radiant · Dec 30, 2020

You should unroll non-processed paper and take photo of the scratch as it is in the paper.

And I can guarantee Harman will take this things pretty seriously.

Lachlan Young · Dec 30, 2020

Have you checked the bottoms of those trays and the hands of those working with the prints? And have you checked a piece of the unexposed paper for a similar fault?

Dry mount presses are also notorious for making all sorts of defects in prints too. As are squeegees - how do you wipe off the face of the print before drying?

radiant · Dec 30, 2020

Lachlan Young said:
Have you checked the bottoms of those trays and the hands of those working with the prints? And have you checked a piece of the unexposed paper for a similar fault?
Dry mount presses are also notorious for making all sorts of defects in prints too. As are squeegees - how do you wipe off the face of the print before drying?

I think user error can be easily ruled out by photographing same scratch on non-processed paper. No need to check equipment at all if the scratch is in unprocessed paper too.

Lachlan Young · Dec 30, 2020

vedostuu said:
I think user error can be easily ruled out by photographing same scratch on non-processed paper. No need to check equipment at all if the scratch is in unprocessed paper too.

I'd agree - though given the severity of the scratch, it should have been visible from the moment the lights went on in the fixer.

Serg Lavrenchuk · Dec 30, 2020

These are images of other prints with scratches from the same Ilford 106 cm roll of FB paper.

Serg Lavrenchuk · Dec 30, 2020

Yes, I agree that on the first image scratch looks terrible. But it is not easy to see until you flatten the print.

Serg Lavrenchuk · Dec 30, 2020

And we rechecked - they all exactly the same distance from the side (is the side) - 35 cm. That is why we first decided it was our AD52 cutter.

Lachlan Young · Dec 30, 2020

How are you wiping the prints for drying? Are there any rollers involved anywhere in your process for handling the paper other than the AD52 dispenser end?

pentaxuser · Dec 30, 2020

All we can do is speculate about the problem as we are not able to see your equipment or examine in person the paper. Really this is a problem that only Ilford can solve from as much evidence as you can provide. You haven't said if you have contacted Ilford and provided it with at least as much evidence as you are giving us?

It would appear that Ilford's staff may not be back until the 4th January 2021 so you have a couple of days to get all the evidence together and send it to Ilford.

If it is Ilford's problem it will want to hear about it as it may have affected other rolls sent to other customers. Send them all the information on the roll box as Ilford will need to know batch numbers that identify when the roll was produced so it can check on any problems that might have happened on the day the rolls were produced.

pentaxuser

Serg Lavrenchuk · Dec 30, 2020

We wipe prints with a siliconized scraper for windows (if you do it only with wet paper not scrapping twice the same place - no problems (at least statistically). No other rollers involved in the process.

The other 2 sources that theoretically involved in the process and might make scratches are manual cutter (like fletcher 2200 cutter but another brand) and 1m Stanley stainless liner.
We excluded these on purpose for second print + fletcher-type cutter could make scratches across the roll not along and both could make only sporadic problems. Not the one 35 cm alongside of the paper in the roll.

Lachlan Young said:
How are you wiping the prints for drying? Are there any rollers involved anywhere in your process for handling the paper other than the AD52 dispenser end?

radiant · Dec 30, 2020

Why cannot you examine an unprocessed paper?

Serg Lavrenchuk · Dec 30, 2020

Yes. That is mostly true (speculative nature of information). But we might (i honestly was expecting for) find some links and advice about the same experience.

I didn't contact Ilford yet as I really didn't feel like that had any difference for my present state.
I tried once to contact Ilford about their Multigrade Digital products and felt all the weight of the heavy machine.

We didn't have a dealer in our county so I had to order rolls from a German supplier. They made me feel that I do not exist. It was about 2011-2012.
So I have experienced that in the real world these things do not work without some "transition energy" gathered from the public "irradiation".

I am sure that the last 4 rolls came in one moment from the factory to the same supplier (as I was waiting for them for 1-2 months for availability).

And for me as a not so big end-user that is a huge load to trash 500+usd of paper/chemistry only and even more personal/equipment/rent just in 2 days.
Plus 3 more rolls 1500+ worth of problematic paper that we need either to re-cut into sheets or ... ?

That is right and fare that I need now to gather and share more information (batch of paper and buying dated).
Probably we would make a video/photo fogging 1 m2 of raper without any impact from our side and processing to check if the problem shows up again and in the same place.

pentaxuser said:
All we can do is speculate about the problem as we are not able to see your equipment or examine in person the paper. Really this is a problem that only Ilford can solve from as much evidence as you can provide. You haven't said if you have contacted Ilford and provided it with at least as much evidence as you are giving us?

It would appear that Ilford's staff may not be back until the 4th January 2021 so you have a couple of days to get all the evidence together and send it to Ilford.

If it is Ilford's problem it will want to hear about it as it may have affected other rolls sent to other customers. Send them all the information on the roll box as Ilford will need to know batch numbers that identify when the roll was produced so it can check on any problems that might have happened on the day the rolls were produced.

pentaxuser

Serg Lavrenchuk · Dec 30, 2020

vedostuu said:
Why cannot you examine an unprocessed paper?

Theoretically, we can try. Now I think we must do together with one fogged in the same time.
The problem was first noticed and tracked by the client on big Dmax areas. It is not what you see from the first look.
Personally, I was told "we have a problem - check" and I didn't notice until a colleague told good angle and spot to look from.

AgX · Dec 30, 2020

Serg Lavrenchuk said:
We didn't have a dealer in our county so I had to order rolls from a German supplier. They made me feel that I do not exist. It was about 2011-2012.

This too is something Harman should be informed of.

Serg Lavrenchuk · Dec 30, 2020

AgX said:
This too is something Harman should be informed of.

The German supplier was super nice and helpful. No help was from Ilford (just in case my English mixed things up).

At the moment looks like one guy here says that he got a dealership. We order sheet film even a few times already.
But expensive rolls for demanding orders... I always tried to buy several in order and in a cold time and carry it not by air-parcels buy land.

It is a kind of paranoia that we trained when supplying RA4 color paper - always try to order bigger (not stocked at stores and shipped from the factory) item in the cold time of the year and then put it freezer yourself.
As soon as you buy from suppliers warehouse locally (and worse in case of summertime) - it is already some level of fog more than ideal.

Tom Kershaw · Dec 30, 2020

I would try and contact ILFORD Photo / Harman directly.

pentaxuser · Dec 30, 2020

Tom Kershaw said:
I would try and contact ILFORD Photo / Harman directly.

That's what I think at least 3 of us are saying Tom but I fear that he may not do that based on his statement of his experience with a prior problem with Ilford

It is of course his choice and that's fine as long as he only wants us to offer a listening ear and sympathy but I do hope that he hasn't placed this thread here in the hope that we can either reach a definite conclusion that it was Ilford's fault nor provide the kind of "Change.Org " kind of crowd pressure on Ilford to examine his problem via Photrio

pentaxuser

LimeyKeith · Jan 1, 2021

Serg Lavrenchuk said:
Yes. That is mostly true (speculative nature of information). But we might (i honestly was expecting for) find some links and advice about the same experience.

I didn't contact Ilford yet as I really didn't feel like that had any difference for my present state.
I tried once to contact Ilford about their Multigrade Digital products and felt all the weight of the heavy machine.

Harman Technology (T/A Ilford Photo) has always responded quickly and politely to any problem/query I, and many others of my aquaintance, have had with their products and for you not to engage with them over this issue, based on interactions some 8 or 9 years ago, I just do not understand. Please just do the right thing, as many of us have said, and contact the company to help get your problem resolved, then be kind enough to come back and tell us all about it.

AgX · Jan 3, 2021

This fault, assumed it is on Harman's side, is of a dimension that it should made public. We have no problem discussing alledged faults of other manufacturers, or even faults likely not even due to them, in a brought manner.

I have asked moderators to move this thread to the Ilford Photo forum just after it being posted, but that was not done.

Serg Lavrenchuk · Jan 4, 2021

vedostuu said:
Why cannot you examine an unprocessed paper?

We did yesterday. And yes - it is on the unprocessed paper also.
+ we found one more problem - if it came to the white border = thin black lines were found.
I tried to show the problem on video.

radiant · Jan 4, 2021

That is a great video. Contact Harman directly, they will sort this out.

Ilford FB MG dammaged roll paper from the factory

Serg Lavrenchuk

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Ilford FB MG dammaged roll paper from the factory

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