Ilfochrome - sales drive

sandholm said:

3: Get the "Ilfochrome / Cibachrome IIA" from Ilford catalogue # 725634, might be hard to find, but its a really good start.

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- I've sent an e-mail off to ILFORD re this publication but have not received a response.

Tom

You still have to buy the dev and fix separately, they made their own kit from the 3 parts of the blx, and will ship it.

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Or just make your own developer and use rapid fix, plenty of threads on that already.

Wayne said:

Or just make your own developer and use rapid fix, plenty of threads on that already.

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And we wounder why chemicals/paper/film get discontinued due to lack of purchase..

Freestyle Photographic Supplies lists Ilfochrome paper, Classic Standard Contrast CPS.1K--Glossy and Classic Moderate Contrast CLM.1K--Glossy, and the Classic P30.2 2 liter Chemical Kit ($89.99) for sale on page 34 of their latest catalog. The same items are not listed on the web site. "All items are available by special order and will be dropped shipped directly from the distributor. Some items subject to additional shipping and hazardous materials fees. Please call for details."

Phone #800-292-6137.

sandholm said:

And we wounder why chemicals/paper/film get discontinued due to lack of purchase..

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Haha! Expense, poor marketing and locally unavailable? I'm sure the main consumers of Ilfochrome aren't mixing their own soup from scratch.

Thanks for all the input here - some very useful stuff for anyone browsing this thread interested in Ilfochrome.

According to Switzerland, sales of Ilfochrome are bouyant - the largest single customer being Walt Disney Corp.

I think you could include Jeff Wall from Canada as a big user of Cibachrome clear.

Matt5791 said:

Thanks for all the input here - some very useful stuff for anyone browsing this thread interested in Ilfochrome.

According to Switzerland, sales of Ilfochrome are bouyant - the largest single customer being Walt Disney Corp.

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When was the last time you saw an advertisement for Ilfochrome products in any photo magazine? I haven't seen one in years and years. Most people think it no longer exists. Why won't the current owners of this process promote it? Very frustrating.

I am planning my seasonal Ilfochrome run for early January - I truly look forward to it. (Good grief! I think I'm salivating...)

Renato,

Do you replenish your Ilfochrome solutions?

Tom

So, here's a question -

Most of the time i shoot b&w and print little albums up every so often. I've been shooting kodachrome the past year though. I've sort of been thinking of getting an album made from the kodachrome stuff. Maybe 35-40 9x12s. Possibly in duplicate.

Would it be worth it to get chemistry and do it myself, or am i better off having it done by a lab? I've got an Omega Dichro head, (the cyan counter is starts at 90, but it's consistently +90) but no print drums or anything like that. I'm essentially set for B&W, but have never done anything color. I don't really have any plans to do any color in the future either really.

I think you answered your own question. Not much point for 35 prints...

c.w. said:

So, here's a question -

Most of the time i shoot b&w and print little albums up every so often. I've been shooting kodachrome the past year though. I've sort of been thinking of getting an album made from the kodachrome stuff. Maybe 35-40 9x12s. Possibly in duplicate.

Would it be worth it to get chemistry and do it myself, or am i better off having it done by a lab? I've got an Omega Dichro head, (the cyan counter is starts at 90, but it's consistently +90) but no print drums or anything like that. I'm essentially set for B&W, but have never done anything color. I don't really have any plans to do any color in the future either really.

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That print size you have in mind is a bit small and it's only a short run versus the high cost of the Ilfochrome media and chems (and testing). If you were printing to say 16x20 or 20x24, the bigger print size would have a correspondingly bigger impact (when framed, for example). Going commercial, the lab you use would probably charge something for contrast masking (the majority of images require this for chroming).

Kodachrome (partcularly PKL200) looks charming on [Cibachrome] chrome media; I had one Ciba print machine-cut by a Kodak Kiosk more than 25 years ago and it has it's own special appeal in terms of colour palette (quite muted by today's film standards).

Matt5791 said:

According to Switzerland, sales of Ilfochrome are bouyant - the largest single customer being Walt Disney Corp.

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Fine. Now we know that as soon as Disney's CEOs will decide they no longer need it (and I'm impressed that they even still do), Ilford Switzerland will bankrupt again.

Matt, I agree with you and Renato Tonelli: Ilfochrome is the most poorly advertised photo product today.

I am also persuaded that the evoluted amateur market has been intentionally disregarded for years, and that it has been a big mistake. Their P30P kit was simply perfect for home use, but when they came out with that 5-liters kit my oh my if they totally killed any interest!

Now they're back with a 2-lt kit which is again OK, but lord what a price! And their export net has been completely turned off in the meanwhile so it's available only in a half dozen of countries (perhaps...), all others have to eat the postage, double VAT and duty fares also!

It's terrible: you know it's still there, but you also know that you will never have the opportunity to print with it again.

How I wish that Ilfochrome could have stayed together with the B/W products assortment. The split of the brand and the short-sight of its swiss CEOs almost killed this outstanding product.

c.w. said:

I've sort of been thinking of getting an album made from the kodachrome stuff. Maybe 35-40 9x12s. Possibly in duplicate.

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I think you will pay around 40 € for each print and a bit less for the duplicate, and if it needs a contrast mask add another 10-20 € dependent on how well know/good the printer is.

That sums up to around 1200-1600 €, and you can get a lot of material for this amount of money,

I package of P30 cost 142 € and it prints 26 8x10
Paper 9.5x12 in 50 pack cost 147 €

Which means that you need 2 chemical kits and one paper pack cost 421€, so you can learn/play around for around 800€. (if you decide you should not get the small chemical pack, instead the 5 liters which will safe you money)

Contrast mask kit cost around 100€ and I use FP4+, the good thing is when your learned it (if you dont use it now) you will have a really good use for it when it comes to B/W printing.

So bottom line, its not that hard, but you have to learn it, its fun, you will safe a bit, learn something and you will have the feeling that you actually did that. On the other hand, if you let a pro do it you will pay more bit you dont have to care about it and you will get a finished product.

I would say, get the small pack of chemical and 25 sheet of 8x10 and just try it out, if you like it get another pack.

The real question is if you want to learn to print color, or if you just want to have it done and get the final result.

c.w. said:

I've got an Omega Dichro head, (the cyan counter is starts at 90, but it's consistently +90) but no print drums or anything like that. I'm essentially set for B&W, but have never done anything color. I don't really have any plans to do any color in the future either really.

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This could be a problem, I dont know the Omega head, but can you completely disengage the color filters, in that case you could get the ilfocrhome filters (they are really cheep). For processing either get a jobo or just a Nova paper processor, which would be useful for your B/W setup (and in the case of the Jobo you can develop C41/E6 film

cheers

Marco Gilardetti said:

Fine. Now we know that as soon as Disney's CEOs will decide they no longer need it (and I'm impressed that they even still do), Ilford Switzerland will bankrupt again.

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I assume you are overestimating the share of Ilfochrome at Ilford Imaging's revenue.

Marco Gilardetti said:

How I wish that Ilfochrome could have stayed together with the B/W products assortment. The split of the brand and the short-sight of its swiss CEOs almost killed this outstanding product.

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Both ranges origine at different companies in the first time.
And that splitting was preceeded by the insolvency of the meanwhile merged companies and seemingly the only way to keep them afloat.



Ilford Imaging recently got a new owner and the halide based products are still on offer. In these times this should be hailed...

Marco Gilardetti said:

Matt, I agree with you and Renato Tonelli: Ilfochrome is the most poorly advertised photo product today.

Now they're back with a 2-lt kit which is again OK, but lord what a price! And their export net has been completely turned off in the meanwhile so it's available only in a half dozen of countries (perhaps...), all others have to eat the postage, double VAT and duty fares also!

It's terrible: you know it's still there, but you also know that you will never have the opportunity to print with it again.

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I think you draw an overly bleak picture here. First of all, there are more than 3 dozen countries where Ilford products are directly distributed. I was easily able to get the kit in Austria, so it should be even easier in Italy. Second, thanks to EU regulations you won't pay duties or double VAT if you order products from other EU countries, just in case no Italian distributor wants to sell the kit to you.

The main problem I see with Ilfochrome is that there are so few hobbyists who do Ilfochrome for themselves. I was quickly able to learn B&W darkroom work just from watching other folks do it, but with Ilfochrome I am on my own. It was easy to get the kit, I have it sitting on a shelf, I have access to a dark room with color equipment, but I have yet to plunge into actually opening that kit and using it

I've just realised this is a three stage process rather than the two stage RA4 process I'm used to. This may scupper my plans as my Nova is only two slot.

Do all three stages need to be kept at the same temperature? I'm thinking is it feasible to heat, say, the dev and bleach stage and then have the fix at room temp in an open tray? Also, do I need a stop between any of the steps?

Rudeofus said:

First of all, there are more than 3 dozen countries where Ilford products are directly distributed. I was easily able to get the kit in Austria, so it should be even easier in Italy.

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Rudeofus, if you would take time to also navigate that list, you'd find out that unfortunately in most of those countries, Italy obviously included, only "Galerie" inkjet products and alike are available.

If you happen to find any italian shop where Ilfochrome is available, ANYWHERE, please let me know urgently.

Also, Switzerland is not part of the EU and has its own coin. I forgot to add that you also have to eat the currency change.

In regard to the company split, I perfectly remember that Ilfochrome was once Cibachrome, property of the Ciba-Geigy. Actually I began printing on it when it was named Cibachrome. And I didn't say that they were stupid to split in that way etc. I only reckon that Ilford B/W products are easily available today (almost like before the digital accident) and that thus it would be fantastic IF the Ilfochrome range could remain along with the B/W stuff, exported and distributed on the same channels.

That's all. Because, practically speaking, I currently consider myself an active Cibachrome photographer; but on the other hand, as a matter of fact it's since 2001 that I couldn't print anything on that paper.

perkeleellinen said:

I've just realised this is a three stage process rather than the two stage RA4 process I'm used to. This may scupper my plans as my Nova is only two slot.

Do all three stages need to be kept at the same temperature? I'm thinking is it feasible to heat, say, the dev and bleach stage and then have the fix at room temp in an open tray? Also, do I need a stop between any of the steps?

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Dev-rinse-bleach-fix-wash, ideally all at the same temperature, but I really don't know how critical all that is...

Edit: have a look at this pdf.

Thanks Kraker.
I've also got an unheated 3-slot Nova, perhaps that would be better to use and just do it all at room temp. I wonder if I could run the chemicals closer to 20C rather than the 24C on the datasheet.

Tom Kershaw said:

Renato,

Do you replenish your Ilfochrome solutions?

Tom

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I haven't so far. I have replenisher on hand but I'm a little unsure of how to use it. I am using the Durst Printo.
I also have the Ilford CAP-40 but I use that for 16x20 only and after I finish off my box 16x20 I'm going to look for a new home for the CAP-40.

I purchased a 32 inch Cibachrome Processor in the mid 90's, Ilford promised to help promote locally . The one page ad they did in a local arts magazine , not only listed three labs not doing the process, one of the labs was closed and the owner deceased, and the ad was in Black & White.
This was and to my knowledge the only marketing / ad done for the 12 years I printed with this process here in Toronto.
By the late 90's Ilford Canada lost its president who was a driving force with this company, and shrunk to two tech reps with no direct product supply in Canada. All chems and paper came out of the States and issues with shipping/and product mistakes became an impossible issue. When I purchased my machine , there was Ilford trained technical support to fix any issue with the machine , this lasted only for a year or two and we had major issues keeping the machine in top shape.

I stopped due to lack of demand by clients and my inability to keep the processor daily in process control to our specs, Getting chemicals and paper was a very difficult process, in fact the errors in product supply was rapidly becoming an everyday event, very expensive , and basically the machine , still in decent working order was tossed. I cannot tell you how important this is when you have a machine with 40 liters of chemicals that requires constant paper and replenishment to go through it to be happy and in control specs.
Working with a Jobo and rotary tube is less problematic and with a one shot mix keeping everything constant is not as problematic. But in our case this machine took up major real estate and was basically not productive.
I think a lot of the real problems came just before Ilfords main troubles financially, and the Swiss division and Ilford US, became strained and then severed .
It was too bad as we invested heavily in this process /believed in Cibachrome beauty and I wish things had worked differently and could still offer this product to my clients at a reasonable rate and service .
Other labs may have had differing experiences with this product supply and figured out how to deal with the Swiss group directly.

But I think the biggest reason this product lost its image/appeal/market share, was due to the digital monster wave to inkjet(giclee) and the appeal of cheaper , faster and in some cases superior prints. The fact that labs lost much of their photographer based printing work the the photographers going out and buying an epson and doing it themselves , basically killed the major labs from being able to sell the more expensive ciba product. My company's business over 10 years changed dramatically and now today we are a much different company working with a much different crowd, who may not appreciate a high gloss cibachrome.
Happily I still process film and print on enlarger for clients even though I have a fibre base digital option for them as well. Cibachrome did not see such a happy fate in my shop.

Marco Gilardetti said:

Fine. Now we know that as soon as Disney's CEOs will decide they no longer need it (and I'm impressed that they even still do), Ilford Switzerland will bankrupt again.

Matt, I agree with you and Renato Tonelli: Ilfochrome is the most poorly advertised photo product today.

I am also persuaded that the evoluted amateur market has been intentionally disregarded for years, and that it has been a big mistake. Their P30P kit was simply perfect for home use, but when they came out with that 5-liters kit my oh my if they totally killed any interest!

Now they're back with a 2-lt kit which is again OK, but lord what a price! And their export net has been completely turned off in the meanwhile so it's available only in a half dozen of countries (perhaps...), all others have to eat the postage, double VAT and duty fares also!

It's terrible: you know it's still there, but you also know that you will never have the opportunity to print with it again.

How I wish that Ilfochrome could have stayed together with the B/W products assortment. The split of the brand and the short-sight of its swiss CEOs almost killed this outstanding product.

Click to expand...

perkeleellinen said:

I wonder if I could run the chemicals closer to 20C rather than the 24C on the datasheet.

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When I gave Ilfochrome a try, it was during a hot summer. I must admit I haven't even measured the temperature of the chemicals, but I guess that despite the heat it was closer to 20 C than to 24 C.

Then again, I'm still not convinced about the results I got that summer. Whether that is due to temperature or one of the many other factors (volume of chemicals per sheet, partial re-use of chemicals, the slides I used, ...) I don't know. So, this is really just a bit of useless information.

All I can say is that I'm certainly going to give Ilfochrome another try.

I think I have said this before on this Forum:
I wish that Ilfochrome chemistry was still available in powder packets like when it was introduced. Surely, it would have a longer shelf life and it would weigh less and cost less to ship.

It would also be a good idea to pool orders whenever possible to get a break on the shipping costs. The last time I placed a huge (for me) order with Freestyle, I paid no shipping charges.

I am in NYC and would be willing to pool an order for January delivery.

Marco Gilardetti said:

Rudeofus, if you would take time to also navigate that list, you'd find out that unfortunately in most of those countries, Italy obviously included, only "Galerie" inkjet products and alike are available.

If you happen to find any italian shop where Ilfochrome is available, ANYWHERE, please let me know urgently.

Also, Switzerland is not part of the EU and has its own coin. I forgot to add that you also have to eat the currency change.

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Forget Ilford Switzerland. You are correct, for Italy indeed only inkjet related stuff is listed, no photographic product line. Yet, not all hope is lost. Let me briefly describe what I did to get one of these Ilfochrome kits, I could well imagine that this also works for you:

1. I contacted Ilford directly, also with questions regarding their product, never got a reply.
2. I contacted LE BON IMAGE, the company listed for Germany&Austria
3. I got a reply from them, stating that they don't directly deal with non professionals, but that they merely distribute to shops and professionals. They sent me a list of shops in Germany and Austria.
4. I contacted two or three of the Austrian shops and got a quote from one of them. Note that this shop still does not mention Ilfochrome on their web page. The other shops never replied.
5. Soon after I got my kit & paper.

The shop I got my Ilfochrome stuff from is called Foto Köberl, and according to their web page they ship within the European Union. Since Austria is part of both EU and the Euro zone, you won't pay for currency exchange, nor double VAT or duty.

Big shame on Ilford for being unresponsive and for making it a royal hassle for people willing to pay money for their products. I hope my post can help you finding and getting Ilfochrome supplies.