Ilfochrome - sales drive

[ndrs]

Thanks darkroomrookie,

This demonstrates how important web usability really is. I have been on this site before and didn't notice.

 

[darkroom_rookie]

ndrs,

You're welcome. I have been trying to find bleach myself too, but here in Croatia you just can't get it, and FotoMayr told me they aren't allowed to ship it outside EU. So right now I am trying to find someone in, say, Germany (ehm...) that might be of assistance with this matter. Any suggestions?

d_rookie

 

[Photo Engineer]

There are several bleach formulas here on APUG in another thread. You may want to mix your own.

PE

 

[darkroom_rookie]

PE,

As always, thanks. I just read some of that thread, but only potassium and sodium iodide, sodium bromide and sulphuric acid are available locally, and very pricey, as they seem to be lab chemicals of a high purity. How important are the other components (3 mercapto-1 propanesulfonic acid sodium salt, 2,3,6, trimethylquinoxaline, sulphonated trialkylphosphine, ethyldiglycol, sodium 3nitrobenzenesulfonate)?
Sorry if I am asking a question which has already been answered elsewhere on the forum.

d_rookie

 

[Photo Engineer]

You can make a good bleach with Sulfuric Acid, KI or KBr, and Phenazine. I also added Thiourea to my bleach.

I was able to order Phenazine from the Formulary, and make up a good bleach. Do not try to use NaI. It is too unstable to work with and it decomposes.

The point is that there are dozens of dye bleach formulas out there that work. Find one that someone has working and use it, but not all of those extra ingredients are needed.

PE

 

[nickrapak]

Yes, there is a ilforchrome filter set that i think you still can purchase, at least on ebay or any other auction homepage. They are not as handy as a color head but it works.

Go for it, you will like it.

I stopped by my camera store today, and it so happens that they have three Cibachrome filter packs for sale. I don't have a darkroom, so they're useless to me, but if anyone wants them, their phone number is 215-357-6222

 

[walter23]

I thought the stuff was completely discontinued. I had a whole bunch of chemistry and paper, and a JOBO processor, all of which came with a bulk darkroom purchase, but I just never tried it (and sold all the stuff).

 

[sandholm]

Usually what is missing is good guides/tutorial how to use the material.

http://www.firstcall-photographic.co.uk/userfiles/file/ilfochrome.pdf
This guide is a really good starting point, if you have any questions feel free to shoot me a email/pm, i will try to answer as good as I can.

I thought the stuff was completely discontinued. I had a whole bunch of chemistry and paper, and a JOBO processor, all of which came with a bulk darkroom purchase, but I just never tried it (and sold all the stuff).

For me there is no question if i print RA-4 or Ciba becasue Ciba is way way ahead then any RA-4 material (and when it comes to material cost, i almost belive that ciba is less expensive because i go through paper like mad when using RA-4 material). Also, Ciba is stable and archivable, which RA-4 is not. The really big feature with ciba are the colors, you place a Ciba print with any RA-4 or ink-jet and the Ciba is so much more saturated and the colors really pop out from the image. Toda a lot of artists/museum work is done on ciba so i really hope that ilford will support this material for a long time. Right now its used by the french military so (so what I have heard) it wont be discontinued in at least 4 years (this is what i have heard the french military contract spans, but i could be really wrong here... only rummors)

The most important for Cibia is to market it, and that printers and photographers show it. I personal have 3 photos printed on cibia/RA-4 and (high-end) ink-jet and its quite easy to talk people into Ciba when they now it will last and the colors. I also show them a old RA-4 print from the 70:s that has faded but a Ciba from the same period looks as new today as when it was made.



cheers

 

[Tom Kershaw]

A couple of points here:

- RA-4 was introduced much more recently than the 1970s and both Kodak and Fuji make claims for lifespans measured in decades.

- In terms of colours 'popping', I hope the medium contrast Ilfochrome material is able to accommodate a more subdued printing approach.

Tom

 

[sandholm]

A couple of points here:

- RA-4 was introduced much more recently than the 1970s and both Kodak and Fuji make claims for lifespans measured in decades.

- In terms of colours 'popping', I hope the medium contrast Ilfochrome material is able to accommodate a more subdued printing approach.

Tom

Typed a bit to fast there, I meant C-prints (I actually dont know the paper/process because I have purchased them from a local photographer who printed them but they have been stored properly, the paper only says Kodak). The RA-4 technology were introduced in the early 80-tis.

When it comes to life span I have heard lots of different figure, but when the numbers has been up in the 100 of years the fine print always say "storage under ideal conditions", which typically means the print is stored in a acid free box... which makes the value completely ridicules, a photo should be displayed.

A good resource are:
Dead Link Removed
Where you have a graph pointing out:
Kodak Ektacolor Portra II and Royal: 13 years
Fujicolor Super FA Type 3 and SFA3 paper: 55 years


cibachrome fading has also been studied:
Dead Link Removed

"After 360 days of exposure to light Cibachrome lost about 30% less than a chromogenic material in 160 days"

This were done with a 5.400 lux daylight flurescent lamp, (temp 40 degree and 35% humidity). So the result between the different papers are quite clear. For mor info read the pdf file.

We can discuss this forever, I use RA-4 also, but i think that enough test by museums and curators have been done which clearly shows the ciba fades less.

cheers

 

[Photo Engineer]

The point here is that the Kodak and Fuji papers referred to in the Wilhelm references above are from obsolete products.

The new Fuji paper is Crystal Archive (CA) paper and the new Kodak paper is Supra Endura. These have both been measured as having lifetimes at about 100 years.

Regarding Ciba/Ilfochrome prints, I have prints that while not fading, do show some changes in color and browning. They also show inaccurate colors (too gaudy), very high contrast, and loss of highlight detail. These flaws can be overcome to some extent by proper masking.

PE

 

[sandholm]

The point here is that the Kodak and Fuji papers referred to in the Wilhelm references above are from obsolete products.

Absolute, but they are the only once I can find from an independent source....

The new Fuji paper is Crystal Archive (CA) paper and the new Kodak paper is Supra Endura. These have both been measured as having lifetimes at about 100 years.

Yes, but i havent been able to locate any studies except from Kodak and Fuji, if you know any I would really like to read them.

Regarding Ciba/Ilfochrome prints, I have prints that while not fading, do show some changes in color and browning. They also show inaccurate colors (too gaudy), very high contrast, and loss of highlight detail. These flaws can be overcome to some extent by proper masking.
PE

Yes, a bit of color shift can occur but that occurs usually after long long time of storage. For the to saturated colors, contrast and loss of highlight details has been adressed in the Medium Contrast paper, but you are absolute right, for scens with really large contrast range its sometimes a must to create a contrast mask. (but that is in the advanced course, and only if you photograph like a white beach in the afternoon and there is a storm coming in over the water), 9/10 times i dont have to do it (except DR5 negatives, there its probably 1/2)

You who are a chemist, why is the ciba dyes so stable?

 

[Photo Engineer]

Ciba/Ilford dyes are azo dyes, and Kodak and Fuji use azomethine dyes. The dyes in Ilfochrome are present in the paper from the start and thus require fast emulsions and long exposures. The grain is thus very high compared to the Kodak and Fuji products which use slower speed finer grained emulsions.

Studies have been made in public references using Endura and CA papers. Even Wilhelm has studied them. A review of this subject was offered by ICIS at their 2006 conference. It was a short course given by a reputable member of the ANSI standards committee. I have also discussed these tests with Henry and members of the Image Permanence Lab at RIT.

Image stability is a difficult and controversial subject.

Color and tone reproduction is not easy either. In a blind test, many people rejected straight Ilfochrome prints due to the flaws inherent in pos-pos systems.

PE

 

[davetravis]

P3.20 at B&H

FYI,
B&H is now shipping its own "kit" of the 3 parts of P3.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/562007-REG/Ilford.html
Got some last week and it works great!
Long live Ciba!

 

[anikin]

davetravis,

The link points to a bleach starter. Am I missing something there? Don't you need the developer and fixer as well? Or do you use some substitutes for those?

Eugene.

 

[bblhed]

As someone said on the first page of posts, where can I find a lab that will print these for me?

Also for anyone that is trying to get someone to decide on a Chrome print over and Inkjet print I would like to recommend taking your two samples and putting them in direct sunlight, I have a feeling that a few weeks of that and you will have a clear winner for sales.

 

[davetravis]

I found the standard Ilford brand stuff on their site, but didn't see any kits for it on B&H except the Ilford 2 liter kit that is out of stock. Do you have a link directly to the one you are talking about?

Greg,
That is the link to the one I bought.
You still have to buy the dev and fix separately, they made their own kit from the 3 parts of the blx, and will ship it.
Still in stock.

 

[davetravis]

davetravis,

The link points to a bleach starter. Am I missing something there? Don't you need the developer and fixer as well? Or do you use some substitutes for those?

Eugene.

You will still need to buy the dev and fix starters, it's a 3 step process.

 

[anikin]

Got it. Thanks!

 

[Bob Carnie]

Stephen Frizza of Lighthouse Labs is printing Ciba every day, I am sure he will pipe in .

As someone said on the first page of posts, where can I find a lab that will print these for me?

Also for anyone that is trying to get someone to decide on a Chrome print over and Inkjet print I would like to recommend taking your two samples and putting them in direct sunlight, I have a feeling that a few weeks of that and you will have a clear winner for sales.

 

[Stephen Frizza]

Yes I do Ilfochrome prints. There may a wait for them as I am very busy but it is a service I provide.
The largest I print to is 50inches x 4 meters by hand.

~steve

 

[Ektagraphic]

I really would love to print Ilfochrome but I lack a color enlarger and a paper processor

 

[Poisson Du Jour]

4 metres...!?
Given my car is 5.1m in length...lemme see [*measuring tape to hand*]...
Yeah, well I can imagine the visual impact a 4 metre long 'chrome would have, but I can also imagine the impact on the bank account...

It's a first for me to encounter a printer who quotes measurements in both imperial and metric in the same statement. I'll work it out to cm...:confused:

 

[sandholm]

As someone said on the first page of posts, where can I find a lab that will print these for me?

Well, there are "quite" a lot of labs that do this. Some are really pro/museum and they dont do that much advertising. Remember that this process (which is really really bad) goes under both the name ilfochrome and the old name cibachrome so you have to google both. Here is a really short list of labs:

http://www.rolanddufau.com/en/cibachrome-ilfochrome.php Roland dufau might be one of the best, recommend, this is my first choice, hands down.

http://www.lab-ciba.com/ expensive but also one of the best, I have seen prints in museum/galleries, but never had one made.

http://www.jessops.com/dnp/Cibachrome Never used them, dont know, never seen a print (as i know of)

http://www.labo1000.com/ilfo.html good lab in Paris that do E6, C41 and Ilfochrome, have done E6 and C41 for me, never ilfochrome but I might send them a slide this week to see what they can do.

Then of course, Lighthouse Labs that already has been mentioned, never have anything done by them but by rumor I have heard that they are good.

Also for anyone that is trying to get someone to decide on a Chrome print over and Inkjet print I would like to recommend taking your two samples and putting them in direct sunlight, I have a feeling that a few weeks of that and you will have a clear winner for sales.

Yes, or even better. Make a back lit ilfochrome (its printed on plastic) and just show it next to a RA-4 and inkjet print. Now when doing back-lit infochrome it has to have contrast masking, or it will be to much contrast, but it looks really really good if its done properly.

cheers

 

[sandholm]

Ok, got some emails and just want to point out some things first:

1: Go and read http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/ilfochro.shtml
( he explain the "standard" filter settings and how it works, and why its excellent.

2: You do not need a paper processor, either you can use the Ilfochrome drums with motor, or you can go big and get a Jobo processor (and with this you can do your own E6) or even larger and get a paper processor. Personal I use a paper processor, but its just because its handier. If you have a Nova processor it works also great. Personal i have never used trays and cibachrome but why not...

3: Get the "Ilfochrome / Cibachrome IIA" from Ilford catalogue # 725634, might be hard to find, but its a really good start.

4: If you only have a B/W enlarger there are cibachrome filters that you can use. When I started I used these filters but I then invested in a color head because it makes it a bit more easy.

5: Read http://www.firstcall-photographic.co.uk/userfiles/file/ilfochrome.pdf

6: The Complete Guide to Cibachrome Printing, by Peter Krause and Henry A. Shull. Published 1980 by Ziff-Davis Pub. Co. in New York

Get a pack of 8x10 and a 2L chem set, try it, its great fun and you can make some amazing color prints.

If anyone has any questions just shoot me a email/PM, i will answer

cheers