If you were to teach a 4x5 workshop, what would you cover?

[Alan Gales]

Why press cameras are a good way to go. Hand held 4"x5" photography and can be used as a view camera with some movements.

I'm going to ask you, Sirius since you shoot both. Which do you get the best image with shooting hand held, your 4x5 press camera or your Hasselblad?

I had a Crown once and I couldn't hold it steady with my bad back. I had no problem with the Hasselblad that I had.

 

[removed account4]

I posted some of the movement. Not all and those it has are limited, but very useful. It depends on the press camera and the particular model.

where did you post them
all i found were 3 posts in this thread
and none lists view camera-esque movements

maybe bush pressman offer more than speed/crown graphics
which only offer minimal shift, front tilt ( unless you flip the standard then it tilts the other way )
and a little front rise ... rear standards, at least on the speed/crown don't do much of anything
and i don't think super speeds do either ...
granted one can bed down and fiddle with the tripod head to mimic rear shift is that what you mean by camera movement ...

 

[brofkand]

I met with the director today and saw the cameras. There was an Omega View that is perfectly complete, even with a nice Sekonic light meter, Polaroid pack film and 545 holder, the works. Two Calumet CC400 cameras: one with a broken ground glass and no lens, the other with a siezed shutter 135mm 5.6 lens. And then the jewel - a beautiful Deardorff 8x10 with 8x10 and 4x5 reducing back, a few 8x10 film holders (for both glass plates and film), Wollensak 333mm (? memory hazy on focal length) lens complete in a custom-made wood carrying case.

I relayed my concerns in giving the Deardorff to students, but the Calumets and Omega are good to go - that gives us 3 cameras. Coupled with the 2 Omega D-2 XL enlargers, we're ready to go. And APUG's help in things to cover in the class has been a great help. I'll be sure to write back on how the first class went - when it happens!

 

[Alan Gales]

I met with the director today and saw the cameras. There was an Omega View that is perfectly complete, even with a nice Sekonic light meter, Polaroid pack film and 545 holder, the works. Two Calumet CC400 cameras: one with a broken ground glass and no lens, the other with a siezed shutter 135mm 5.6 lens. And then the jewel - a beautiful Deardorff 8x10 with 8x10 and 4x5 reducing back, a few 8x10 film holders (for both glass plates and film), Wollensak 333mm (? memory hazy on focal length) lens complete in a custom-made wood carrying case.

I relayed my concerns in giving the Deardorff to students, but the Calumets and Omega are good to go - that gives us 3 cameras. Coupled with the 2 Omega D-2 XL enlargers, we're ready to go. And APUG's help in things to cover in the class has been a great help. I'll be sure to write back on how the first class went - when it happens!

The Deardorff in the condition you describe with additional 4x5 back should be worth north of $2000. Talk to the director and maybe it could be sold to finance repairing the other stuff and/or buying additional items. Today you can buy real nice used 4x5 monorails for $200 or less. Being straight forward to use and having all the movements, monorails are great for students to learn on.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I'm going to ask you, Sirius since you shoot both. Which do you get the best image with shooting hand held, your 4x5 press camera or your Hasselblad?

I had a Crown once and I couldn't hold it steady with my bad back. I had no problem with the Hasselblad that I had.

Serious work is done on the Hasselblad. The Speed Graphic for playing around with hand held or with a tripod when I want to tilt the lens. The Graflex Model D is used for landscapes and for portraits. I have an Imagon lens for soft focus when I do not want to use the Softar filters.

 

[vdonovan]

I teach a basic large format workshop out of my home. My goal is to give the students enough knowledge and confidence that they can go out and take pictures on their own, either with borrowed, rented or purchased equipment. My basic outline is:

Types of large format cameras
Large format camera components
Lenses and shutters
Step by step, how to take pictures with a large format camera
Large format film:
choices of film
loading and handling film
Camera movements (how, when and why to use them)

Each of these has a hands-on exercise to go with it. The second day is guided shooting in the field.

I have a follow-up workshop on developing large format film. Now that there are so many good options for 4x5 daylight tanks, it's easy and cheap to develop film at home.

 

[Craig]

Before you take your shot, lock everything down. It's amazing how easily a standard can move when you jam a holder into place.

My cameras have removable backs, I always take the back off to insert the film holder and them mount back + holder onto the camera. I did this after getting massive back swing one time when pulling back on the ground glass to insert the holder!

 

[brofkand]

The Deardorff in the condition you describe with additional 4x5 back should be worth north of $2000. Talk to the director and maybe it could be sold to finance repairing the other stuff and/or buying additional items. Today you can buy real nice used 4x5 monorails for $200 or less. Being straight forward to use and having all the movements, monorails are great for students to learn on.

As long as I am a member and have access to the Deardorff and I have a say-so, it won't be sold. I am going to use it! Besides, being a state-owned university we can't sell anything (they can only surplus it where it's sold at an auction along with all the other surplus property like desks, chalkboards, old computers, etc. - and the department doesn't get that money).

It's likely that we'll be able to pick up another monorail camera either from another department on campus as surplus equipment, or we'll be able to get one donated from a local camera store. I doubt they're selling through the 4x5 monorail cameras they've picked up over the years on trade, but who knows.

 

[Alan Gales]

As long as I am a member and have access to the Deardorff and I have a say-so, it won't be sold. I am going to use it! Besides, being a state-owned university we can't sell anything (they can only surplus it where it's sold at an auction along with all the other surplus property like desks, chalkboards, old computers, etc. - and the department doesn't get that money).

It's likely that we'll be able to pick up another monorail camera either from another department on campus as surplus equipment, or we'll be able to get one donated from a local camera store. I doubt they're selling through the 4x5 monorail cameras they've picked up over the years on trade, but who knows.

Well, I'm glad that you will be able to use it. It would be a shame to let it collect dust.

I know students can be rough on cameras.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Folks,

It's likely that within the next month or two I'll teach a workshop on the 4x5 camera for my local craft center. The center has 4 4x5 cameras that were donated over the years and I am meeting with the director tomorrow to go over them to make sure they're in good condition. The darkroom is equipped with 2 Omega enlargers that can handle 4x5 negatives.

The workshop will likely be a 1- or 2-day event, not a 5 week class or anything like that. The students will have film camera experience, and darkroom experience (the craft center's intro to B&W class will be a prerequisite), but presumably no large format experience.

I think the most important points to cover are movements, metering, focusing, and processing of the 4x5 film (we'll be using trays, as the craft center got rid of their hangers and tanks years ago...sad). I have an SP-445 I will bring to the workshop, but since I only have one I doubt we'll be using it in the workshop.

Anything you'd be sure to cover, or things you think we can leave out of the workshop? In the future I'd love to do a toning workshop, an advanced B&W printing class, etc., but for now the 4x5 class is the one that has an opportunity soon - any advice is appreciated!

shouldn't you as the workshop leader know the answers for all of this?

 

[Luckless]

shouldn't you as the workshop leader know the answers for all of this?

Having taken a number of dreadfully planned workshops and classes across various subject matter over the years, I have to say that people stepping back and talking about what they're planning to present in a class is probably 'a very good idea'.

 

[tedr1]

One quick further thought. A 4x5 neg contact printed on a sheet of 8x10 paper makes a fine picture and the students can contact print without having to first learn how to drive an enlarger

Good Luck

 

[brofkand]

shouldn't you as the workshop leader know the answers for all of this?

I had a rough idea of what I'd like to cover when I originally volunteered for the class, but it's always good to see what other people who have taught something similar in the past covered, and didn't feel was worth covering. Why reinvent the wheel when there are people out there that have done the same thing as what you're trying to do?

Well, I'm glad that you will be able to use it. It would be a shame to let it collect dust.

I know students can be rough on cameras.

It certainly won't be collecting dust. Just have to decide if I want to get into 8x10 film or just use the 4x5 reducing back. Most likely I'll do 8x10 X-ray film and contact print it if I do get into 8x10. If they had an 8x10 Polaroid processor I'd be trying out the Impossible 8x10 stuff, but they don't have one and they're too expensive for me to consider buying for a camera I don't own.

One quick further thought. A 4x5 neg contact printed on a sheet of 8x10 paper makes a fine picture and the students can contact print without having to first learn how to drive an enlarger

Good Luck

Rough plan now is for each student to get 2 film holders, 4 exposures. We'll have plenty of extra film and holders for students who want to do more as well, but 4 exposures in a day is a good crop (even with bracketing). That nicely fills an 8x10 contact sheet, and they can enlarge the frames they like best if desired.

 

[jscott]

1 or 2 days? I would recommend guiding them through the process of making, developing, and printing an image. Actually you don't have enough time to cover that very well. Not much room for hands on work because you need to give some detailed lectures (several hours).

I did a 5 day course in 4x5 B&W and three whole days were spent in the darkroom. There is so much to learn...

1-2 days, really?

 

[brofkand]

1 or 2 days? I would recommend guiding them through the process of making, developing, and printing an image. Actually you don't have enough time to cover that very well. Not much room for hands on work because you need to give some detailed lectures (several hours).

I did a 5 day course in 4x5 B&W and three whole days were spent in the darkroom. There is so much to learn...

1-2 days, really?

1-2 days is the introduction and testing the demand really. There will be a 4 or 5-week course in the future if this is successful and something people want to have.

 

[Bob Carnie]

I have taught the use of 4x5s quite a lot during the 24 years I was with the university. My instruction was geared toward people who would be taking the cameras out and using them for assignments, then what to do once they came back to the darkroom.

What and how you will teach will depend on the needs and experience level of the students. For two days, I would not consider enlarging as a practical subject of the class...unless it was along the lines of one straight, quick-and-easy 11x14 print from one negative as a demo.

Better yet, buy a pack of this: http://www.freestylephoto.biz/9012-Blueprint-Printables-Design-andamp-Print-Pre-Coated-Cyanotype

...and have everyone make a couple cyanotypes. LF is the cats meow for alt processes!

FIRST DAY
Intro to camera:
Set up cameras in teams of two
Explore cameras...lens operation, movement controls, focus, film holder use
Loading holders
Image control:
Take cameras out (or studio) and practise composing images w/o film.
Exposure controls:
Have everyone expose two sheets
Development of film
-----End of day one
DAY TWO
Examine dry film
Retake image if needed, two new images if not.
Develop film
Make cyanotypes

I pretty much agree with Vaughn except I may consider doing a contact sheet of the film.... I also would not go into movements but just basic info.

 

[Ian Grant]

I pretty much agree with Vaughn except I may consider doing a contact sheet of the film.... I also would not go into movements but just basic info.

I have to disagree Bob, one of the key reasons for using LF is the range of movements. I used LF cameras for studio work from the mid 1970's but when I I began serious landscape work around 1986 with a pair of Mamiya 645 cameras I was losing shots due to insufficient DOF/movements. I considered moving to an RB67 but in the end realised LF was a far better option and over 30 years later haven't regretted it.

I've taught a lot of people how to use movements and by showing quite extreme examples, which actually shows how simple they are, have found they grasp the principles very easily, and it's quick as well. |Basically though I agree with Vaughan as well.

Ian

 

[Vaughn]

For a two-day workshop I would definitely cover movements, but would keep it short and sweet. Greater attention to movements can be made helping students with individual images...that is what I call image management. Giving advise like, "This is how a little forward front tilt can help here" and so on. The standard one-page of view camera movements would be good to include in the course material. An advanced 4x5 workshop could delve into movements more deeply. Table-top set-ups, etc.

I would not be afraid of assigning two or even three people per camera (if there is that level of interest) for a two-day beginner's workshop...it will make your teaching much more efficient as people start working with the cameras...they tend to help each other and are less afraid to tackle a new tool...and one can read off the check-list as the other sets up the camera, etc.

An advanced workshop might benefit from a camera per student, especially if there is a lot of field time...but still very workable with two per camera.

Contact prints is an excellent idea, Bob, but cyanotypes would be a lot of fun!

 

[Sirius Glass]

Yes, learning about movements is important, but one must learn to operate the rest of the camera first. That is one of the reasons I would start the class with learning how to use the press camera hand held. After that every thing transfers over, the lenses can be used in a view camera, the press camera can be used as a view camera and the first demonstration is showing how to use the front rise to stop building from rearing back.

After all most of us learned to crawl, then walk and then run. Yes, of course there are exceptions but were you one of them?

 

[narsuitus]

"If you were to teach a 4x5 workshop, what would you cover?"

As a student, if I were to take a 4x5 workshop, here is what I would expect to be covered:

Why choose a 4x5 camera

Types of 4x5 cameras

4x5 camera features and controls

Lens selection

How to change lenses

Tripod selection

What camera movements are available

How camera movements can solve various problems

4x5 camera accessories (loupe, focusing cloth, light meter, cable release, case, etc.)

Shooting with roll film

Shooting with sheet film

Loading sheet film holders

Developing sheet film

Demonstration of how to use the 4x5 camera to take a class photo

 

[A Almulla]

My basic outline is:

Types of large format cameras
Large format camera components
Lenses and shutters
Step by step, how to take pictures with a large format camera
Large format film:
choices of film
loading and handling film
Camera movements (how, when and why to use them)

As a student, if I were to take a 4x5 workshop, here is what I would expect to be covered:

Why choose a 4x5 camera
Types of 4x5 cameras
4x5 camera features and controls
Lens selection
How to change lenses
Tripod selection
What camera movements are available
How camera movements can solve various problems
4x5 camera accessories (loupe, focusing cloth, light meter, cable release, case, etc.)
Shooting with roll film
Shooting with sheet film
Loading sheet film holders
Developing sheet film

Demonstration of how to use the 4x5 camera to take a class photo

Sorry first post from me on the forum. I have been contemplating a large format sometime in the next few years. Where I live I have to order anything and everything because none of it is available locally and classes for anything is practically non-existent and any info I get is book or web based.

Things that I would like to know, given this is a 1-2 day course:

• Types of large format cameras
• Bonus to the above, which panorama backs I could use (6x12, 6x17) with what size
• Movements, although all are beneficial, which are of a greater priority since not all cameras have them all.
• The image is inverted and how to frame and focus, should be a short segment.
• Lens types and lens equivalents to 35mm, how to change lenses and a brief talk about how lenses are attached to their boards.
• Other items to consider, light meter, release cable, filters. I guess this would be brief.
• Tripods and heads.
• Transporting gear. What to look for in a bag.
• Film backs, types and how to load them as well as transporting film. How many shots would you typically do in a day to give the audience a feel for a typical day.
• The need for patience.

Thats just what a large format wannabe like me would be looking for and as a student there would be a few other things I have missed due to not knowing about it.

 

[Peter Schrager]

Sorry first post from me on the forum. I have been contemplating a large format sometime in the next few years. Where I live I have to order anything and everything because none of it is available locally and classes for anything is practically non-existent and any info I get is book or web based.

Things that I would like to know, given this is a 1-2 day course:

• Types of large format cameras
• Bonus to the above, which panorama backs I could use (6x12, 6x17) with what size
• Movements, although all are beneficial, which are of a greater priority since not all cameras have them all.
• The image is inverted and how to frame and focus, should be a short segment.
• Lens types and lens equivalents to 35mm, how to change lenses and a brief talk about how lenses are attached to their boards.
• Other items to consider, light meter, release cable, filters. I guess this would be brief.
• Tripods and heads.
• Transporting gear. What to look for in a bag.
• Film backs, types and how to load them as well as transporting film. How many shots would you typically do in a day to give the audience a feel for a typical day.
• The need for patience.

Thats just what a large format wannabe like me would be looking for and as a student there would be a few other things I have missed due to not knowing about it.

Just too complicated
One,lens
One back
One film
The less movements the better..KISS
How to load film properly.
Tray development. .nothing complicated
How looking upside down actually improves your picture taking

 

[rthollenbeck]

Just too complicated
One,lens
One back
One film
The less movements the better..KISS
How to load film properly.

I wholeheartedly agree with Peter on this. Your Work Shop is 2 days for beginners. Even if you use a monorail you it would probably be best to simply teach them as if it was only a press camera. Maybe even just show them tray devolpment with a couple sheets you shot.

IMHO LF obstacle for most people is to slow down and step by step what your doing. If you forget one step you missed the shot. If they leave knowing just that, you've done them a huge favor.

If I had Polaroid film and 4x5 backs, maybe I'd even do several practice runs that way so they could all see it right away when they failed..... in a condensed amount of time. Oh well.....

 

[Peter Schrager]

I wholeheartedly agree with Peter on this. Your Work Shop is 2 days for beginners. Even if you use a monorail you it would probably be best to simply teach them as if it was only a press camera. Maybe even just show them tray devolpment with a couple sheets you shot.

IMHO LF obstacle for most people is to slow down and step by step what your doing. If you forget one step you missed the shot. If they leave knowing just that, you've done them a huge favor.

If I had Polaroid film and 4x5 backs, maybe I'd even do several practice runs that way so they could all see it right away when they failed..... in a condensed amount of time. Oh well.....

There is polaroid film...worth every penny although I haven't used the new 55
I did a workshop when APUG MET IN Toronto
And used polaroid...yes you can't learn it in a day but can do them well enough so they continue and maybe you more workshops later
Wholeheartedly agree about tray development
Easiest in the world and cheapest...
Have an amazing day! Peter

 

[removed account4]

1 or 2 days? I would recommend guiding them through the process of making, developing, and printing an image. Actually you don't have enough time to cover that very well. Not much room for hands on work because you need to give some detailed lectures (several hours).

I did a 5 day course in 4x5 B&W and three whole days were spent in the darkroom. There is so much to learn...

1-2 days, really?

unless the class was billed as a complete immersion-class where you would become
an almost-expert by the end of the class ...

why bog people down with things that are not introductory-materials ?
camera movements, advanced darkroom techniques ...to me at least that is an " advanced " not "intro"

that said,
it sounds like a great way to keep a class going, ( and $$ in the pocket of the teacher )
... having an "intermediate" and later an "advanced" classes