I wrote to Shanghai film about their 220 availability

[Donald Qualls]

I sent another email asking if they are ready to ship, if not, when. And also to Freestylephoto asking if they will be carrying it - and if so, when. Because they had mentioned that it will be distributed in the US. If distributors get it at the same time (or before!) me, then what's the point?! Unless there is a big price discrepancy.

I agree -- why even bother with it if Freestyle will have it at the same time, or even within a few weeks later. I'd still be in for ten rolls, even if it's $10/roll plus shipping, though that's about my limit (.EDU Ultra 400 is just under $5 for 120).

 

[Huss]

I agree -- why even bother with it if Freestyle will have it at the same time, or even within a few weeks later. I'd still be in for ten rolls, even if it's $10/roll plus shipping, though that's about my limit (.EDU Ultra 400 is just under $5 for 120).

Yup. The reason I want 220 is for convenience in cameras like my GW690III where it is nice to have 16 frames before reloading.

 

[TheGreatGasMaskMan]

perhaps you could do a test roll and development before you disperse out your lot...?

 

[Huss]

perhaps you could do a test roll and development before you disperse out your lot...?

So all the risk is taken by the buyer of the 100 rolls? That doesn't seem to be in the community spirit of this.

 

[howardpan]

I just received a reply. I would have to order minimum 100 pieces. I would be charged $810 including shipping, so "my" cost would be $8.10/roll of 220.
If anyone wanted to buy any from me, shipping would have to be added to that, etc.

Soo... would this be worth it? I'd like it at $8.10/roll shipped. But I don't need $810 worth!

The cheapest 120 400 ISO film in the US is about $4.80 before tax/shipping. But it's 120 film.

Hi Huss,

If you would like, I can buy some on Taobao and ship it to you. It’s CNY 58 per roll which is about USD 8.66 according to Google. I can ship it you via EMS, which should run approximately USD 20 or the postal ePacket.

 

[Huss]

Hi Huss,

If you would like, I can buy some on Taobao and ship it to you. It’s CNY 58 per roll which is about USD 8.66 according to Google. I can ship it you via EMS, which should run approximately USD 20 or the postal ePacket.

That's a very kind offer. Shanghai has not responded to me when I asked if they actually have it ready to ship.
So Taobao actually has this 220 film in stock ready to ship?

 

[howardpan]

That's a very kind offer. Shanghai has not responded to me when I asked if they actually have it ready to ship.
So Taobao actually has this 220 film in stock ready to ship?

Hi Huss,

I believe it’s available. I don’t shoot the 220 format so
I haven’t purchased it personally yet, but it is listed for sale on Jiancheng’s Taobao site. Also, Pierre Zhou has been offering to buy it for people outside of mainland China (I think via his Facebook account).

https://m.intl.taobao.com/detail/de...z3qNT3Uxz8SbTH+H8=&sm=88e700&app=macos_safari

 

[Lachlan Young]

Hi Huss,

I believe it’s available. I don’t shoot the 220 format so
I haven’t purchased it personally yet, but it is listed for sale on Jiancheng’s Taobao site. Also, Pierre Zhou has been offering to buy it for people outside of mainland China (I think via his Facebook account).

https://m.intl.taobao.com/detail/detail.html?ut_sk=1.WT0EmLIg3nsDAL2OYHdpgU4h_21380790_1602373205455.Copy.1&id=627783918694&sourceType=item&price=58&origin_price=约 TWD 251.03&suid=A41BB1C3-DFC4-427B-8B53-73A8378FE0CA&shareUniqueId=4148264273&un=cfe142a965e73fad6eabd07a58355624&share_crt_v=1&spm=a2159r.13376460.0.0&sp_tk=OTRyTWM2QlcyRzE=&cpp=1&shareurl=true&short_name=h.4ausCyr&bxsign=scdr94m1CLD7lHKNgg6x7aI9uljfxQ/q7bdzQEMFzh9SBjYVFKlNXLFTXwSKSUhSA2FpTogWDV2mEqGMk4wL9kIpWZKdVz3qNT3Uxz8SbTH+H8=&sm=88e700&app=macos_safari

Do you know if any further technical info has surfaced about the new film - ie characteristic curve/ spectral sensitivity, development times etc?

 

[howardpan]

Do you know if any further technical info has surfaced about the new film - ie characteristic curve/ spectral sensitivity, development times etc?

I have not seen any data sheet on the Shanghai GP3 100 or GP3 400 films. However, recently, I found the following development times posted on a Taobao site. Supposedly, the development time is listed on the inside of the film box.

 

[Huss]

Hi Huss,

I believe it’s available. I don’t shoot the 220 format so
I haven’t purchased it personally yet, but it is listed for sale on Jiancheng’s Taobao site. Also, Pierre Zhou has been offering to buy it for people outside of mainland China (I think via his Facebook account).

https://m.intl.taobao.com/detail/detail.html?ut_sk=1.WT0EmLIg3nsDAL2OYHdpgU4h_21380790_1602373205455.Copy.1&id=627783918694&sourceType=item&price=58&origin_price=约 TWD 251.03&suid=A41BB1C3-DFC4-427B-8B53-73A8378FE0CA&shareUniqueId=4148264273&un=cfe142a965e73fad6eabd07a58355624&share_crt_v=1&spm=a2159r.13376460.0.0&sp_tk=OTRyTWM2QlcyRzE=&cpp=1&shareurl=true&short_name=h.4ausCyr&bxsign=scdr94m1CLD7lHKNgg6x7aI9uljfxQ/q7bdzQEMFzh9SBjYVFKlNXLFTXwSKSUhSA2FpTogWDV2mEqGMk4wL9kIpWZKdVz3qNT3Uxz8SbTH+H8=&sm=88e700&app=macos_safari

Shanghai wrote back today. They said that the film will be available 1-2 weeks after they receive payment from me! So it seems like they wait for an order before they make any.

 

[BrianShaw]

Could be that they already made it but their fulfillment timeline is 1-2 weeks. I tend to doubt that they custom-make small orders.

 

[MattKing]

Could be that they already made it but their fulfillment timeline is 1-2 weeks. I tend to doubt that they custom-make small orders.

Or the film is on a big roll, and it takes them that time to cut it and get those leaders and trailers on it.

 

[BrianShaw]

Or the film is on a big roll, and it takes them that time to cut it and get those leaders and trailers on it.

... that would be custom production of 220, wouldn’t it?

Given the statement made, it could be any of the three options!

 

[Huss]

Could be that they already made it but their fulfillment timeline is 1-2 weeks. I tend to doubt that they custom-make small orders.

In my conversations they said minimum order of 100 rolls. It's not a big order but if it was in stock they would not say 1-2 weeks wait after payment. But who knows?

 

[PhotoJim]

In my conversations they said minimum order of 100 rolls. It's not a big order but if it was in stock they would not say 1-2 weeks wait after payment. But who knows?

Could just be that the next week or two of production is already sold.

 

[BrianShaw]

... or that the warehouse and shipping departments are either backlogged or slow... or that they want time for funds verification...

no matter, that’s not bad turnaround time. Faster is always better but immediate gratification is a gift not a right.

 

[Donald Qualls]

I've been getting about the same service from Adorama this year, without any notification (other than "your item is back ordered" after the fact). I ordered some film from them on the second of this month; today is the 12th and it hasn't shipped yet. Doesn't seem like Shanghai telling us up front that it might take a couple weeks is a big deal.

 

[Huss]

Thanks for the input.

 

[mshchem]

Ilford, if you are reading this, you've made the right decision to not consider 220. It was a unique product, for commercial purposes. That market, the frenzied wedding photographer, the commercial, industrial photographer, people who fit into that nitch. There were niches for long roll films for school photography. Those markets are gone.

If a company, in a low labor cost region wants to pay, invariably it would be ladies, to sit in the dark, and by hand, cut and tape rolls of a inexpensive black and white film, so be it.

The market simply is not right, especially for a company like Ilford. It would involve costs and risk that are not in anyway reasonable. Quality and making a product for everyone, not 2% of your customers

We may see this product. Who knows, but if it's intended for mass distribution, outside of China, we would be hearing news from the existing distributors.

What we should be discussing is what drives NEW markets and sales of black and white photo PAPER. Now there's a topic worth discussing.

 

[Nokton48]

I would like to see Shanghai make 4x5 film packs again. I believe Kodak had two ladies that used to assemble all of theirs. Two from Shanghai would be the same.

There is a small niche market for these. I was a frenzied wedding photographer and I still have six freshly CLA'ed A24 Hasselblad backs. It was all color but I stocked up on B&W 220 HP5+/Tri-X Pro/Plus-X expired when it was being closed out

I'd stock up on Shanghai just to keep the backs running as intended. Isn't the 400 about 100 ISO? I'm not familar

 

[Donald Qualls]

If it's China, it's more likely to be children than women, just as it is with fireworks (at least rolling film is safer).

But there's no good reason all the work has to be done in the dark -- in fact, even the part that must be dark could be done in a glove box (aka changing box/changing tent). Tails could be pre-wound on spools in the light (by machine or by hand), at a minimum; then film strip fed and taped and rolled and head taped on and rolled up in the dark, and finally head tapes applied and final inspection done in the light before sealing into the pouch.

All of that could be done by machine, of course, as it surely is with 120, but it makes no more economic sense to replace very low cost labor with machines than it does to buy a machine that would take decades to pay back its investment.

Honestly, I always wondered why Kodak had women loading film packs up until they retired -- even in 1950 it ought to have made economic sense to have a machine do that (as I'm pretty certain Polaroid did with their more complex pack films from the 1960s until the 1990s). Pack film was once popular enough to be a significant niche product -- not a major line, but not a loss leader, either. It predated 220 by many years, and was nearly as convenient (better, in some ways).

 

[Deleted member 88956]

Ilford, if you are reading this, you've made the right decision to not consider 220. It was a unique product, for commercial purposes. That market, the frenzied wedding photographer, the commercial, industrial photographer, people who fit into that nitch. There were niches for long roll films for school photography. Those markets are gone.

If a company, in a low labor cost region wants to pay, invariably it would be ladies, to sit in the dark, and by hand, cut and tape rolls of a inexpensive black and white film, so be it.

The market simply is not right, especially for a company like Ilford. It would involve costs and risk that are not in anyway reasonable. Quality and making a product for everyone, not 2% of your customers

We may see this product. Who knows, but if it's intended for mass distribution, outside of China, we would be hearing news from the existing distributors.

What we should be discussing is what drives NEW markets and sales of black and white photo PAPER. Now there's a topic worth discussing.

Trouble with your statement is that absolutely NOBODY today knows what 220 market would have been had there been 220 actually available. Ilford made a choice, because for them to go 220 would have meant new machinery (according to Ilford) and apparently never considered any other smaller run approach to test the market. That statement was made some time back and things have changed since. Not saying that going all out into 220 makes economic sense, but I don't think Ilford's staff is reading this all standing up with hand over heart and saluting your post.

Time will tell whether film recovers to the point of seeing more apparent volume demand for 220, but I would not bet my head on a chopping block against it either.

And when the ladies in Shanghai get some experience, become free agents, Ilford might bring them in for a season and see how that could work.

 

[MattKing]

And when the ladies in Shanghai get some experience, become free agents, Ilford might bring them in for a season and see how that could work.

Assuming of course that the Shanghai sourced leaders and trailers wouldn't cause problems with the first and last frames of the modern Ilford emulsions.

 

[Donald Qualls]

Assuming of course that the Shanghai sourced leaders and trailers wouldn't cause problems with the first and last frames of the modern Ilford emulsions.

Is there any good reason the leaders and trailers couldn't be identical to 120 backing paper? You have the leader that runs to or just past the film start -- before that point, the only way it must be different is seemingly a slightly different space between start arrows and film start (?), and you have the trailer that's just backing paper that starts where the film ends. Not the most cost efficient way, but for a test run, couldn't these literally be cut from 120 backing?

 

[MattKing]

Is there any good reason the leaders and trailers couldn't be identical to 120 backing paper? You have the leader that runs to or just past the film start -- before that point, the only way it must be different is seemingly a slightly different space between start arrows and film start (?), and you have the trailer that's just backing paper that starts where the film ends. Not the most cost efficient way, but for a test run, couldn't these literally be cut from 120 backing?

They could, except for the different printing on them.
But how do you know that the Shanghai backing paper and ink won't react with the Ilford emulsions?