I REALLY Hate Loading 120 on Patterson Reels

bernard_L said:

Although this was not addressed at me, I'll provide some form of answer. Some or all of which has probably already been stated in the 100+ posts so far.

1. Dry and clean reels. Rinse in warm water after the film has been put to hang. Separate the two halves for easier/faster drying. Periodically wash in hot 1% sodium carbonate, or dishwasher cycle.
   
2. I don't separate the film from the paper before starting with the reel. Not so keen to deal with the untamed film winding onto itself in the dark. Unwind to the start (end, actually) of film. Let the reel rest on the table, providing some tension by its weight. Diagonally cut the corners by a few mm. Gently curve the leader (tail) of the film onto the edges of the spiral, just in front of the "entrance"; the curvature keeps the film in check.
   
3. Pull (not push) the film through the ball bearing gates, and a few inches beyond.
   
4. One half of the spiral in each hand. Thumbs pressing the film onto the edges in front of the gate. Don't push above the void between the reels. Start alternate rotations.
   
5. Geeently pull the tape from the film. Not keen to let the tape (potentially) free itself and float in the developer. And the fireworks from tribo-electricity may be fun, but with film, no thank you; seems to me that film manufacturers have worked on that and the static is far less than a few decades ago.

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Thanks. But I think the main problem is making the corners hit the take up slots straight and both at the same time.
The other stuff is pretty much given.
It can feel like trying to thread a needle in the dark.
Very little feedback that you are on the right or wrong track (pun intended).

The film cups and curls in all directions that you have no chance of anticipating.

I found that doing one corner, then holding it dead still with two fingers and then securing the other corner works 90% of the time.

Folding over the tape of the leader end also helps tremendously in keeping the front stiff and straight and aiding tactility.

Having the film fall out off the feed track can also be a problem.
But can be mostly avoided by pointing the tracks down and letting gravity assist while holding the roll either naked, de papered with pinkies inserted or just dangling.

Helge said:

But I think the main problem is making the corners hit the take up slots straight and both at the same time.

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This, I think, answers your concern:

bernard_L said:

Gently curve the leader (tail) of the film onto the edges of the spiral, just in front of the "entrance"; the curvature keeps the film in check.

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Expanding. Hold reel in front of you, hub left-right, entrance slot at top, facing you. Film spool on table, between you and spiral. Curve the film leader over the "horizontal" edges of the spiral. It is channeled between the "vertical" edges, so direction is perfectly defined. With one hand, grab the film end; other hand holds spiral; spool weight maintains some tension and keeps the film along the curved edges. Pull the film through the ball bearing gate.
Don't feel like making a video. Any perceived obscurity in the written instructions should disappear if actually practicing in daylight, with one eye on the text.

bernard_L said:

Pull (not push) the film through the ball bearing gates, and a few inches beyond.

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bernard_L said:

Pull the film through the ball bearing gate.

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This small point is very important. (IMO)

If you practice a lot in daylight with eyes open you might even see where you are getting a jam and what is the cause.

Failing that you could try one of these and see what is the cause of the jam. (from my own experience it is always something very simple.)

Helge said:

Instead of just telling us how easy it is, it would be very helpful if you would tell us exactly the steps you go through.

Even after several hundred rolls of 120 film, I still once in a while struggle for a minute or so getting the leader into the slots, and even having the film jam and jump out of the tracks or feed slots, which results in having to start over.

It is not so much the additional time, it is more the added handling with dust, scratches and smudges and perhaps creasing of the film that bothers me.

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I HAVE posted more times than I care to remember how I load 120 films into Paterson reels, or any other plastic reels
1 Take a sharp pencil and run it round the groves on both top and bottom of the reel
2 undo the film, this can be done in the light,
3 let the film hang from the reel and backing paper
4 using your finger make sure you have the reel the correct way round, for me the start of the reelm to the left
5 holding the film in one hand, by the end that has no images on
6 introduce the end of the film to the reel, then lake sure the film is past the ball bearings, to about half way round the reel by holding the end of the film between finger and thumb, do it gently
7 using your thumbs as a light guide load the film in the normal manner, taking you time,
8 process the film
9 after washing and final wetting agent rinse, remove the film from the reel and hang up to dry
10 do not scrub or do any more to the reel, simply stand it with the centre colum to dry.
next time repeat the above.
This has worked for me for 60 years of developing 120 and 35mm film,
maybe sounds a lot, but is very quick to do' most important is the pencil, letting the film hang under the weight of the paper, and using your thumbs to guide the film, what could be easier, works for me every time, and paterson type reels are much easier to load than Jobo ' I have used and still do use a Jobo tank and reel,being a Jerseyman we never though anything that can be used away

braxus said:

I just order 2 of the Arista Premium plastic reels. They seem to have a guide for loading the film into, and I can reuse my Paterson tanks. So I'll try this. I guess I'll just have some spare reels now.

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This is what I use. Never a problem.

R.Gould said:

I HAVE posted more times than I care to remember how I load 120 films into Paterson reels, or any other plastic reels
1 Take a sharp pencil and run it round the groves on both top and bottom of the reel
2 undo the film, this can be done in the light,
3 let the film hang from the reel and backing paper
4 using your finger make sure you have the reel the correct way round, for me the start of the reelm to the left
5 holding the film in one hand, by the end that has no images on
6 introduce the end of the film to the reel, then lake sure the film is past the ball bearings, to about half way round the reel by holding the end of the film between finger and thumb, do it gently
7 using your thumbs as a light guide load the film in the normal manner, taking you time,
8 process the film
9 after washing and final wetting agent rinse, remove the film from the reel and hang up to dry
10 do not scrub or do any more to the reel, simply stand it with the centre colum to dry.
next time repeat the above.
This has worked for me for 60 years of developing 120 and 35mm film,
maybe sounds a lot, but is very quick to do' most important is the pencil, letting the film hang under the weight of the paper, and using your thumbs to guide the film, what could be easier, works for me every time, and paterson type reels are much easier to load than Jobo ' I have used and still do use a Jobo tank and reel,being a Jerseyman we never though anything that can be used away

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Thanks. This is a new thread though. It’s surprisingly difficult to find stuff by search on here.
You might make a document to cut and paste from. ;-).

Helge said:

Thanks. This is a new thread though. It’s surprisingly difficult to find stuff by search on here.
You might make a document to cut and paste from. ;-).

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You are very welcome, this has worked for me for 60 years, I had problems all those years ago, but a family friend, who was a professional photographer, showed me the pencil trick, and running the lead around the groves make such a difference that everything else falls into place, try it
Richard

RalphLambrecht said:

some good advise above but, maybe, the real solution is the new La Box from Imago;it lets you load AND process film in daylight. can anybody share experiences?

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I haven't used one, but did a lot of research. The general consensus is that it works fairly well, with two problems:

1) When things go wrong, you have no way of knowing until you open after fixing.
2) If your film uses a PET base, things will go wrong. See #1.

Also, the knob that comes with it by default is not nearly as good as the (optional) crank.

foc said:

I have a simple question.
Does anyone practise loading the reel in daylight with a film? (obviously the test loading film is ruined but good for practice)

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I did with 4x5, because some of the film holders I bought came with ruined sheets to play with. For 120, I didn't have any already exposed film, and I hate wasting things, so I watched a number of videos. I got lucky on my first roll of 120-- no problems with the bearings. For the second roll of 120, I used the other reel, which had a bearing that was well and truly stuck. I spent half an hour getting increasingly frustrated before grabbing the second reel (put the 120 spool into the tank and put the snap-on lid on, then grabbed the other reel).

Afterwards, I examined both reels to figure out why one worked and one didn't, and that's when I discovered the stuck bearing. Ever since, I have always checked the bearings for free movement before attempting to load film.

And I also bought the Arista style reels, and threw the OEM Paterson reels into a box for when I want to torture someone.

One word... Stainless Steel...... oh and practice, practice, practice.

tomkatf said:

One word... Stainless Steel...... oh and practice, practice, practice.

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Which one of those was the word?

Wayne said:

Which one of those was the word?

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Your choice...(start with the emoji)

It's fun to read a debate as old, older than I am. My Dad started with a 1940s Era Elkay Bakelite tank. It's all he ever used. I still have it. No inversion. I got a Paterson System 4 tank 1 reel, 35mm only when I was a kid, probably 1971. It leaked, justa little, but the reel was amazing. I developed a crapload of film in that little tank

braxus said:

This system has got to be the most frustrating system to load when dealing with 120 film. My rolls of 120 are 5 years old, so they had some curl to them. It literally took me an hour to load 2 rolls of Tri-X 120 onto my Patterson reels. The problem was trying to get them started. The second reel was worse, as it kept jamming inside the reel when turning over. I gave up on trying to get it to go right, as I'll see if the darn thing develops normally or not. Imagine being stuck inside a dark bag for an hour. Im really debating to go back to the stainless reels to do 120. It should not be this hard. I also used the method of using a card to feed the film inside the reel. Didnt help much as either the card would come out or the film got stuck feeding, so pulling the card out just F'd up the whole process. I ended up doing it without the cards.

Anyone else feel my frustration with this system and 120?

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There's a hybrid design from China. Half Jobo, half AP. I tried a beta version. It was pretty loose. I ordered another to see if gotten better.

I use 1 System 4 tank purchased in about 1982 and another purchased in the 90's. I use the original reels which get rinsed with tap water after the film has been "photoflowed" (although I use Ilford stuff). Never cleaned the reels with anything other than their rinse in tap water.

My method for 120 is to undo the paper until I can feel the film then cut the paper using scissors so it's about 2.54cm shorter than the film. This lets me hold the roll of film without getting my fingers on it as the paper is still covering the rolled up portion (i.e. the majority). Sometimes I snip the leading edges at 45 but usually forget. I then hold the reel in my left hand and rotate the right side of the reel clockwise so that the track opening is further away from the left. Holding the film by the centre (with the paper protecting it) and orientating it square to the reel, I poke the film into the left track and then rotate the right side back onto the film. I push it in a bit further to ensure it's past the ball bearings, place my thumbs on the bits where the film enters the tracks and drop the film so the paper backing unravels and weighs the film down keeping it straightish. I then ratchet the film in but I do this quickly but with a light touch (if it snags I don't want to force it). I find if you go slow it has a good chance to bind. Once I feel the paper backing against my thumbs, I peel it off and fold the tape over onto the film. Another couple of twists and into the tank it goes.

I do this in the darkroom with my eyes closed! That time I practiced with my eyes closed stuck!

If you're having issues, don't be a tightarse (like most of us!) and waste a roll so you can see what your doing at first, then progress to the eyes closed stage (you may never recover from this!), then once mastered, try your good film!

Another suggestion is to have a backup plan for when you can't get the film on. Have something light tight handy that you can put the film in, turns the lights on so you can go and regroup. I've got some old J&C Pro 100 that has such a curl to it that I've had to do that. I put it in my paper safe that's on the bench but if you're using a dark bag, have something already in the bag ready. I dug out another reel from the cupboard which worked (turns out it's pretty fogged and not worth using at all)

R. Gould:
Your advice was far from useless, even if I don't do it your way.

MattKing said:

R. Gould:
Your advice was far from useless, even if I don't do it your way.

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Thanks Matt,
We all have our own ways that we have practiced over the years, I only posted this at the request of Helge, who in an earlier asked me to describe the way I load 120, in Paterson reels

bernard_L said:

Although this was not addressed at me, I'll provide some form of answer. Some or all of which has probably already been stated in the 100+ posts so far.

1. Dry and clean reels. Rinse in warm water after the film has been put to hang. Separate the two halves for easier/faster drying. Periodically wash in hot 1% sodium carbonate, or dishwasher cycle.
   
2. I don't separate the film from the paper before starting with the reel. Not so keen to deal with the untamed film winding onto itself in the dark. Unwind to the start (end, actually) of film. Let the reel rest on the table, providing some tension by its weight. Diagonally cut the corners by a few mm. Gently curve the leader (tail) of the film onto the edges of the spiral, just in front of the "entrance"; the curvature keeps the film in check.
   
3. Pull (not push) the film through the ball bearing gates, and a few inches beyond.
   
4. One half of the spiral in each hand. Thumbs pressing the film onto the edges in front of the gate. Don't push above the void between the reels. Start alternate rotations.
   
5. Geeently pull the tape from the film. Not keen to let the tape (potentially) free itself and float in the developer. And the fireworks from tribo-electricity may be fun, but with film, no thank you; seems to me that film manufacturers have worked on that and the static is far less than a few decades ago.

Click to expand...

That is pretty much the same as I do, apart from I personally never wash the reels after developing the film, and I have always used the pencil trick, which is maybe why I don't find the need to wash or scrub my reels. many have mentioned the AP reels (Arista premium?) I have tried them, but I find Paterson reels easy
Richard

Although I may have used Patterson reels many years ago at a rental darkroom, for the past 20+ years I have been using Jobo 1500 and 2500 reels exclusively. The 1500 are easier to load and the 2500, while a little harder to load, are larger in diameter which allows for greater chemical flow across the surface of the film. Of course that requires a correspondingly larger tank (2500 series vs the 1500 series). But the loading procedure is essentially the same:

1. First I completely remove the paper backing from the roll – including the tape at both ends and place the tape inside the harrison film tent where it will not accidently come into contact with the film.
   
   
2. Next I thread the leading edge of the film into the grooves on the reel which I had previously lined-up so that they are parallel to each other. I don't bother to trim the leading edge.
   
   
3. Then I gently pull the leading edge of the film about half way around the reel making sure that it stays in the first groove.
   
   
4. Then I rearrange my hands so that the index fingers are in contact with the leading edge sides of the film and the thumbs are lightly placed at the entrance groove to ensure that the film enters through the grooves. A major cause of problems results when the film starts loading outside of those grooves. Keeping the thumbs placed lightly at the entrance ensures that wont happen.
   
   
5. While walking the roll onto the reel, that portion of the film not yet on the reel may torque preventing it from entering the reel. When that happens just spot and with one hand straighten it out so that it will flow straight to the entrance. Keep the index and thumb of the other hand I place on the leading edge and entrance groove so that your free hand will “know” where to go when you return to walking the film.
   
   
6. Make sure that all of the film is completely on the reel and into its groove before inserting it into the developing tank.

Forgot to mention: If loading 120 make sure that the roll divider stop is out of position.

Thomas

Well I shot another roll on a Fuji GW690 camera I got in the last month. It was a fresh roll of TMAX 400 that hasn't expired yet. This made a huge difference since the film didn't have a built in curl to it yet. I was able to load the film using a card to help feed it into the groove and the film went in in seconds. I was able to load the reel in a minute flat. So maybe I'll save the Paterson reels for fresh 120 and use the AP reels for old film. This time the card method worked, as the film easily slid past the card once feeded, so I was able to pull the card out without disturbing the film. I'm going to develop the roll now.

braxus said:

So maybe I'll save the Paterson reels for fresh 120 and use the AP reels for old film

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If you have in mind this model of AP reel, so-called "compact" (versus "classic"):
https://www.apphoto.es/accesorios-cuarto-oscuro/espiral-para-pelicula-35mm-automatica-ap-mod-compac/
you might find some assistance in the extra wide guides, but, in my experience, the material used by AP does not have the low-friction property of the Paterson spiral; more likely to bind in the middle of film insertion. On the other hand, the gasket for the AP tanks is better (water-tight) than the one in the Paterson tanks. All inter-compatible; so buy one of each and enjoy the best of both suppliers.
125 posts !!

bernard_L said:

the material used by AP does not have the low-friction property of the Paterson spiral; more likely to bind in the middle of film insertion. On the other hand, the gasket for the AP tanks is better (water-tight) than the one in the Paterson tanks.

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AP spirals seem to be identical material to Patersons. I cannot see any difference in their friction capabilities.

AP gaskets? You mean the screw on lid? Mine leaks more than Paterson if isn't screwed on properly to the end. The AP lid screws are very sticky, and the lid is sometimes tight to screw on. I don't like AP tank at all, and it takes more liquid per film than Paterson.

On the other hand if you mount the Paterson lid as it is supposed - pressing FIRST from the middle and then securing the edges, that thank doesn't leak at all. Pressing the lid generates lower pressure inside and sucks the lid even better in place.

But this is a broken record already ..

vedostuu said:

On the other hand if you mount the Paterson lid as it is supposed - pressing FIRST from the middle and then securing the edges, that thank doesn't leak at all. Pressing the lid generates lower pressure inside and sucks the lid even better in place.

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The "burp" that Tupperware has been demonstrating in their advertising since the 1950s. In the 1980s, they changed the design of their lids to make it easier to do. Create a slight vacuum inside the (in our case) tank and that will hold the lid on, vs. slight pressure inside (from developer warmer than the air, or heat or your hands, etc.) which pushes the lid off as well as pushing liquid inside past the seal. Anyone who learned to seal Tupperware as a kid wonders why people think Paterson Super System 4 tanks are leaky...

I purchased my AP reel from Freestyle in the US. Thats the one I got.

braxus said:

I purchased my AP reel from Freestyle in the US. Thats the one I got.

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They are interchangeable - Arista Premium, Samigon, AP, probably more.
I like mine. If you want to divide your time between the Paterson and Arista Premium ones, use the Paterson for 35mm.

Hi braxus,

I used my 2x135mm 1x120 Paterson tank for a while and rolls kept jamming on me. First, I hate the tank because its always messy and sprays like a deodorant when opening the lid after inversion even with practice and holding a tissue in front of it it's always a gamble.

The Paterson reels are terrible the ball bearings destroy the film border 90%, most the time they can never grip the film fully when turning the reel. Sometimes my reels were dry and loaded terrible, sometimes my reels were wet and it loaded perfectly fine, and the other way around. I read every post online I could find what I do wrong, I started cutting the film border edges in different angles and sizes dried reels over night between development it never stopped.

I was fed up and finally about to drop serious money because seeing my film never clean was such a bummer and made me angry. I spent about 2 weeks online researching, this is my solution.

Jobo tanks and reels. Those are the best reels ever made in my opinion the system is so easy to understand, in Germany older jobo tanks (System 1000/2000) are very cheap compared to a brand new jobo reels/Tanks. I already developed about 50 rolls with them since I have them (I developed most of them for my friend because he had a big backlog). I loaded a 5 reel tank with a breeze in a dark bag and I only had one roll jam on me in 3 runs in a row (15 rolls), even when the reels were wet. The one reel that jammed on me a bit, it was with a 120 roll because I cut the film very bad on the corners (user fault). I hope you will find a solution to your problem because I know how much this topic sucks...if you have any questions feels free to ask.

Here are the tanks.