I REALLY Hate Loading 120 on Patterson Reels

[Helge]

I think you missed the point that I can now load effortlessly inside the darkbag with my technique that I described in an earlier post. I am not looking to make any corrections to a technique that works well for me.

As far as loading in complete darkness is concerned, there is ample space to work with the reel and the film and there's no sweating. All this makes loading very easy. When using a darkbag to load the film, space constraints and sweat create problems that don't exist when you're loading in complete darkness.

And YOU missed the idea that you probably figured out what the problem was by working in the dark outside the dark bag, and then were able to apply that knowledge inside the dark bag.

That is one way that worked for me at least.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I prefer to load development reels either in a changing room bag or in the dark. It just seems to workout better in the end.

 

[Don_ih]

changing room bag

 

[Wayne]

This is why I bought a Jobo 1520 and not a Patterson, despite the ridiculous cost.

 

[Donald Qualls]

I have to say, for 120, I prefer Paterson type reels over stainless -- but changing bags are pure evil; they're better than no dark space, but not much. Even a closet with a towel under the door and a shelf at waist height is preferable.

 

[StepheKoontz]

Cloth gloves help with the sweating issue. On extremely curled film I bend the leading edge backwards to undo the tight curl on the first few inches. I also clip just a bit off the corners but don't clip too much. Like others said, if the reels are CLEAN (I rinse them with hot water after each use) and DRY, they almost load themselves.

 

[grat]

Ball bearings must move freely.
Reel must be dry.
Large tabs are useful.

I suspect the OP had at least one stuck ball bearing-- it will cause you to spontaneously invent a whole new category of swear words.

Finally, a changing tent is much better than a bag in this case.

 

[BrianShaw]

Regarding changing bags. That’s what I use. The whole experience changed for the better when I started using the larger sized Patterson changing bag. Small armholes so if thick-wristed it could cut off circulation a bit.

 

[Prest_400]

I use a shared darkroom space and it's basically all Paterson plastic reels. There is one SS tank but I haven't tried it.

Aside of an instance with a ball bearing issue where I could not load the film at all, it has been very simple otherwise. It does take me about 30sec to ensure the threading before it smoothly goes in.

PET based film is a lot easier to load on reels, dry and handle in general.
And it’s a joy to handle, print and scan too.
Does anyone have any idea why this material isn’t universal?

I also wonder, as it is also superior in dimensional stability, strength (a con for motor wind cameras and cine) and archival qualities. It makes sense for still film. So far I think it is just Adox and Foma using it across their film lines.

 

[ciniframe]

I use the card method, my card is a piece of plastic from a milk jug that I pull over a straight edge to give it a curve. It has a tab bent at 90 degrees so I have something to grip to pull it free after the loading has a good start.
Could see perhaps a changing tent but the only time I’ve used my bag was away from home when my 35mm film pulled loose at roll end and had to be extracted from the camera and placed in a light tight container until I could get home.
Don’t know if this makes a difference but my plastic reels are from an ancient Yankee Master tank.

 

[Jojje]

Not so long ago, I too struggled with with getting an old TMY film on a Paterson reel. Finally I tried putting it the other way around: the taped end first, somehow this worked..?
A late museum photographer once told me, once, in the beginning of his career he had put the backing paper on the reel, not the film! He did try to put the paper on the reel again - out of curiosity - in daylight, but couldn't do it again!

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

The only time I struggled with a roll of 120...actually 620, which was my Grand Dad's that sat in his Six-20 since the late 30's. Finally got it on the Patterson. After all that, there was only one barely legible image on it. In hindsight, I should have used a stainless steel real.

 

[Helge]

I also wonder, as it is also superior in dimensional stability, strength (a con for motor wind cameras and cine) and archival qualities. It makes sense for still film. So far I think it is just Adox and Foma using it across their film lines.

It’s said to kill the gears in motor drives if a jam occurs, because of its strength.
Same would probably go for rough handling of manual advance.
But it is AFAICS superior in every other sense.
Clear, smooth, curls less, creases less easily and scratches less.

 

[MattKing]

Light piping is one other downside of PET substrate.
Along with the fact that a material that is difficult to cut (as PET is) presents challenges in manufacture - just think of how much more difficult it would be to cut and punch out those millions of 35mm and motion picture film sprockets!
And of course, in order to use it, every film stock currently on cellulose tri-acetate would need to be reformulated for the new substrate. In particular, the anti-halation materials would need re-design.

 

[Helge]

I think you missed the point that I can now load effortlessly inside the darkbag with my technique that I described in an earlier post. I am not looking to make any corrections to a technique that works well for me.

As far as loading in complete darkness is concerned, there is ample space to work with the reel and the film and there's no sweating. All this makes loading very easy. When using a darkbag to load the film, space constraints and sweat create problems that don't exist when you're loading in complete darkness.

Are you trying to start an argument? ;-) I’m saying more or less that.
No missed point.

I am however thinking about clever ways to make a dark box, with amble room and air to work in. Problem is, such a box would take a non insignificant amount of space.

Dark tents exist, but are work to set up, can develop leaks and are not inexpensive.
Plus they are not that much more roomy.

Cutting off the sleeves of a couple of heavy duty black chemical rubber gloves would be a start.

Any other ideas?

 

[Helge]

Light piping is one other downside of PET substrate.
Along with the fact that a material that is difficult to cut (as PET is) presents challenges in manufacture - just think of how much more difficult it would be to cut and punch out those millions of 35mm and motion picture film sprockets!
And of course, in order to use it, every film stock currently on cellulose tri-acetate would need to be reformulated for the new substrate. In particular, the anti-halation materials would need re-design.

I found light piping to be a very minor problem. Even with IR exposed film.

It might however mean fundamental unsolvable problems with halation since the substrate is essentially a weak flat optical fiber.
I’ve had a strong image of the sun bleed from one frame to another on 120 Foma film.

You have to find a way to bring internal reflection way down.

 

[sterioma]

I have given up on Paterson spirals for 120 (but I do use them for 35mm). For 120 I have bought just one from Kaiser that fits in the Paterson tank and it's so much easier to load (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Spiral-Pat...ords=kaiser+reel+spiral&qid=1620114711&sr=8-1).

I regularly use that spiral inside a film changing bag.

 

[foc]

How about a dark box for film loading, like one of these.
I know they are not cheap but they have a more roomy interior than a dark bag and may suit if you can't blackout a room or cupboard.

 

[runswithsizzers]

I put a cardboard box inside my cheap cloth changing bag. It seems roomier and less restrictive inside. With the sides as reference points it's easier to organize. The front of my box (arm side) is completely open; I left the back side closed for ridigity, except for an opening big enough to put the tank through.

Never tried plastic reels. While learning, I had a few misfires with stainless steel reels, but with practice, loading the metal reels has become stress-free.

 

[gone]

Putting a box w/ short sides on it into the change bag is a great idea. Having a bag that's big enough is a big help too. I decided to just cover the bathroom window and block the light from around the door. I take the tank and film in there w/ a chair and a folding TV tray to set things on. If I'd set that box on the TV tray w/ the tank and reels in it, I wouldn't have accidentally knocked the tank's reel tube onto the floor yesterday, which caused a small bit of debris to get between two frames on the film.

My Beseler has the exact same reels as steriomas. I bought the tank because it was considerably cheaper than a Paterson, but it's worked much better. Who knew? Those lil aprons on the reels make loading the film sooooooo easy. Just lay it on the tabs and it slides right into the reel. Plus, the Beseler tank doesn't leak.

 

[tokam]

I switched from Paterson plastic reels to Hewes stainless reels for 120 a few years ago after numerous problems which frequently resulted in kinking and crescent marks on the developed film.

In hindsight it occurred to me that attempting to load the taped end of the film first into the reel may be the cause of occasional sticking / jamming while loading the film. If any of the tape extends beyond the film edge then this could be fouling the reel while attempting to 'push' the film into the reel. I shall check closely, by touch, next time I process a 120 film to check if the film edge is smooth and tape-free after separation from the backing paper. The simple solution would then be to load the spiral from the other end of the film strip. This would be in addition to the other technique involving clipping the corners of the film before loading.

Can anyone comment on the situation above where the tape may overlap the edge of the film as I haven't processed a 120 film in over a year.

 

[Donald Qualls]

The tape is no wider than the film -- usually there's a couple millimeters of film uncovered at both ends of the tape strip. It's done this way to avoid having the tape stick out of the edge of the roll (which would make for hate and discontent when loading the camera).

I usually tear the tape across to separate the film from the paper -- modern tape seems to be a lot stickier than it was even fifteen years ago, and I have poor results trying to peel it from either the paper or the film. If there's any left from the paper side, I fold it over, and I don't have any problems.

 

[Michael Firstlight]

Personally I love stainless reels - greaw up on them, but when using the Jobo it uses the plastic reels. I was lucky enough toe get my hands on a bunch of 35mm and 220 Jobo steel reels and all three sizes of the steel inserts post to use them in Jobo tanks - but unfortunately they are getting harder to find like everthing elses. My Phototherm Skidekick SK8 still requires the use of the plastic Patterson reels dues to the sidekick center cores unfortunately :-(

 

[Dmosher]

Supposedly, my stance on stand development, plastic reels and digital photography being art, makes me a troll, according to some. But I cannot care, and so I’ll say it again: plastic reels have no place in a darkroom.

nah, having an opinion doesn't make you a troll. It absolutist statements that make you a troll.

 

[Vaughn]

...I usually tear the tape across to separate the film from the paper -- modern tape seems to be a lot stickier than it was even fifteen years ago, and I have poor results trying to peel it from either the paper or the film. If there's any left from the paper side, I fold it over, and I don't have any problems.

I always tear the tape off...I love seeing the glow from the tape separating from the film!