I REALLY Hate Loading 120 on Patterson Reels

Jonno85uk · May 4, 2021

I used to get the "film sweats" and creases in 120 film often with paterson reels. At times I dreaded loading them thinking they were defective. I think I must have exploded one across a wall at one point.

In the end I found it easier to pull the film on a few inches past the ball bearings. After that, reel worked fine.

As for taking the tape off at the start of the film? Am I doing things backwards? The tape has always been at the end for me and I just fold it over onto the emulsion.

Pieter12 · May 4, 2021

Old Gregg said:
But Jobo reels are the same. If anything, they're harder to work with because their little notches are more subtle.

Jobo reels are not the same. The plastic flange for loading the film is half the size of the Patterson and there are no ball bearings to help grab and push the film forward on the reel. The bell bearings can make things easier or harder, depending on how freely they move.

NB23 · May 4, 2021

Dmosher said:
nah, having an opinion doesn't make you a troll. It absolutist statements that make you a troll.

As my signature clearly states, all my posts are to be read with an Amazeballs Barry White voice. At least there is that.

Vaughn · May 4, 2021

Jonno85uk said:
...As for taking the tape off at the start of the film? Am I doing things backwards? The tape has always been at the end for me and I just fold it over onto the emulsion.

I have always removed the film from the backing, letting the film roll up until I get to the tape, then tearing the tape in half by pulling the film away from the paper. As mentioned before by someone, I joyfully toss the paper onto the floor. Removing the tape from the film, I watch the sparks and insert that end onto the reel first. I have left the tape on, also -- seems to make no difference.

For awhile I saved the backing paper and reels for someone who was coating their own 120 film.

Michel Hardy-Vallée · May 4, 2021

The struggle is reel, man.

I use Paterson for 35mm and stainless steel for 120. Doing the opposite is masochism.

Wayne · May 4, 2021

Old Gregg said:
But Jobo reels are the same. If anything, they're harder to work with because their little notches are more subtle.

I don't think they are the same. I haven't used mine yet but it doesn't have no freeking ball bearings.

RalphLambrecht · May 4, 2021

braxus said:
This system has got to be the most frustrating system to load when dealing with 120 film. My rolls of 120 are 5 years old, so they had some curl to them. It literally took me an hour to load 2 rolls of Tri-X 120 onto my Patterson reels. The problem was trying to get them started. The second reel was worse, as it kept jamming inside the reel when turning over. I gave up on trying to get it to go right, as I'll see if the darn thing develops normally or not. Imagine being stuck inside a dark bag for an hour. Im really debating to go back to the stainless reels to do 120. It should not be this hard. I also used the method of using a card to feed the film inside the reel. Didnt help much as either the card would come out or the film got stuck feeding, so pulling the card out just F'd up the whole process. I ended up doing it without the cards.

Anyone else feel my frustration with this system and 120?

the trick is that the reels must be bone dry before trying to load the film and clipping off the corners helps a lot; having your nervous sweaty hands in the bag for so long may provide enough humidity for the film emulsion to swell slightly;stay cool and practice in daylight. it may be worth trying a fully darkened room and forget about the bag altogether.

Donald Qualls · May 4, 2021

Michel Hardy-Vallée said:
I use Paterson for 35mm and stainless steel for 120. Doing the opposite is masochism.

I'm the opposite to this -- I have a lot of trouble loading 120 on stainless, 35mm goes right in (as long as the reel isn't bent). However, with clean, dry Paterson reels, I have no trouble (on my darkroom counter), and unlike stainless, I can load two rolls of 120 one after the other and get the same density of film to developer as I'd have with 35mm.

Now that I have a 3D printer, it's tempting to try to print a substitute Paterson reel that doesn't have the step where the groove passes under the starting point. At the very least, I'm going to print a 16mm reel, so I can get rid of this Yankee Clipper tank (can't invert it, have to use an aftermarket 3D printed swizzle stick, and the format adjustment isn't as confidence-inspiring as Paterson).

bluechromis · May 4, 2021

Second the use of Samigon, or other reels that have the wider lip for inserting film. As long as the reel is dry, it is almost foolproof. I have no problem loading films including thin support films like Rollei IR 400 that some people find troublesome. You could train a drunken wombat to load film with this kind of reel, seriously. I am convinced that this is how the plastic reels should have been designed all along. If you are having trouble loading plastic, you owe it to yourself try one of these better designed reels. The only downside I have had with Samigon reels is that they tend to slide up on column more than Patterson reels. So I use pieces of plumbing pipe as a spacer to keep it in place.

MattKing · May 4, 2021

Michel Hardy-Vallée said:
The struggle is reel, man.

I use Paterson for 35mm and stainless steel for 120. Doing the opposite is masochism.

I'm using Paterson/AP for both mostly, but I really like stainless steel for 35mm.
I think the difference is due to the French Fact .

braxus · May 4, 2021

Most of my struggles were to get the film started into the loading slot. I spent more time doing that then anything else. I'm going to see if those Arista reels I ordered will help my case. I don't have issues using the bag. It was the least of my problems.

grat · May 4, 2021

Old Gregg said:
Never heard of ball bearings getting in the way. In my case the hardest thing was to get the film edge into those freaking grooves. Ball bearings never mattered. If a roll gets stuck that's because its corners are catching onto the edges of the reel (goes away after one full revolution) or it gets progressively worse due to humidity, which is the same with JOBO that's why I was wondering.

The problem with the ball bearings is that they act like a ratcheting mechanism-- it's how the paterson style reels work-- quarter turn back and forth. When you rotate the side forwards, the ball bearing wedges itself between the film and the reel, pulling the film in. When you rotate it backwards, it slides out of the way, to allow the reel to rotate backwards without moving the film.

If the ball bearing is jammed, the film will not advance-- it will buckle, crease, and pop out of the track, causing new levels of improvised swearing.

Personally, I use a nitrile glove on one hand to keep humidity / sweat at bay.

Wayne · May 4, 2021

Old Gregg said:
Never heard of ball bearings getting in the way. In my case the hardest thing was to get the film edge into those freaking grooves. Ball bearings never mattered. If a roll gets stuck that's because its corners are catching onto the edges of the reel (goes away after one full revolution) or it gets progressively worse due to humidity, which is the same with JOBO that's why I was wondering.

I read a lot of reviews before deciding. The Patterson ball bearings create problems for some people.

mshchem · May 5, 2021

I can load anything with these

David Lingham · May 5, 2021

I made a simple guide out of plastic, cut from a jar (dried mushrooms) with the same curve as the reel. I used a craft knife and a steel rule to make it 70mm long and the width of the reel. In use it fits under the ballbearings and then you slide the film over the top, once it’s established, reach underneath and remove it. As previously mentioned, Paterson reels have to be dry.

RalphLambrecht · May 5, 2021

NB23 said:
Supposedly, my stance on stand development, plastic reels and digital photography being art, makes me a troll, according to some. But I cannot care, and so I’ll say it again: plastic reels have no place in a darkroom.

some good advise above but, maybe, the real solution is the new La Box from Imago;it lets you load AND process film in daylight. can anybody share experiences?

Helge · May 5, 2021

The meta perspective on this thread is, that a simple thing such as loading the tank is holding a lot of people back from doing their own development.
For every one who perseveres and is enthusiastic enough to write here, there is a thousand who try it once and give up out of utter frustration.

Copying a bad(ish) design from the 60s for a completely daylight loading tank (as done recently) is obviously not the answer.

Doing something that is easy, fast and cheap and completely daylight workable start to finish and possibly also DIY, should be possible. Though obviously not obvious, since it would have been done long ago.
I always thought that a long flat (to minimise liquid use) column or container that could hold a completely outstretched roll of 135 or 120 film would be one possibility..
It would be easily storable and you be able to do just about any agitation scheme with it.
The spiral, however good it is in all other regards, is what causes all of the grief.

You'd obviously need a light tight backing-paper puller for 120 to remove paper and retrieve and attach the taped leader. Like a long 135 cartridge. Trivial, but possibly quite hard to DIY well.

foc · May 5, 2021

I have been following this thread with interest and there have been some great ingenious suggestions about loading developing reels.

I have a simple question.
Does anyone practise loading the reel in daylight with a film? (obviously the test loading film is ruined but good for practice)

radiant · May 5, 2021

foc said:
I have been following this thread with interest and there have been some great ingenious suggestions about loading developing reels.

I have a simple question.
Does anyone practise loading the reel in daylight with a film? (obviously the test loading film is ruined but good for practice)

For beginners it is usually recommended that they try it out in daylight. I for example didn't try 120 film loading before rolling in the real stuff. It was pretty interesting to open the 120 roll when you don't know what to expect and you cannot see anything. I did not develop the backing paper, for a note

After you have done it once there is no point practicing because I think film loading is pretty simple thing to do.

Helge · May 5, 2021

foc said:
I have been following this thread with interest and there have been some great ingenious suggestions about loading developing reels.

I have a simple question.
Does anyone practise loading the reel in daylight with a film? (obviously the test loading film is ruined but good for practice)

It's good idea to do that. As is practicing any thing that you plan on doing blind.
The thing is to stay vigilant and disciplined blind all the way through until failure. And then, only then use your eyes to see what the fuck went wrong.
Failing a roll of film, you can use backing paper as practice.
I have loaded the paper once or twice before I learned to check and double check.

Helge · May 5, 2021

vedostuu said:
For beginners it is usually recommended that they try it out in daylight. I for example didn't try 120 film loading before rolling in the real stuff. It was pretty interesting to open the 120 roll when you don't know what to expect and you cannot see anything. I did not develop the backing paper, for a note

After you have done it once there is no point practicing because I think film loading is pretty simple thing to do.

Oh please, get of your small horse (sic). Four pages, and it's obviously not trivial for a lot of people.

R.Gould · May 5, 2021

foc said:
I have been following this thread with interest and there have been some great ingenious suggestions about loading developing reels.

I have a simple question.
Does anyone practise loading the reel in daylight with a film? (obviously the test loading film is ruined but good for practice)

Yes, about 60 years ago, once in daylight, then eyes closed, then in a darkroom in the cupboard under the stairs, and I have never had any problems loading films either 35mm or 120 since, My first developing tank was made by Johnson's of hendon, long before Paterson tanks were around, when Paterson tanks arrived it was so much easier I have used them ever since, in fact I still have, somewhere, the very first dev tank that Paterson made, I still have some original system 4 tanks in use today, plus the newer super system 4 tanks, the only trouble I ever had loading a film was in a Hewes stainless steel reel, terrible things, took me nearly an hour to get it in, despite trying in daylight, Paterson tanks on average 1 minute to load 2 films, easiest thing in the world to do, and I NEVER scrub the reels, only thing I ever do is pour the wetting agent in, take the film out and put the reel to dry, I have even loaded damp reels without any problems, I have said it before and I'll say it again, run a pencil lead around the groves every now and again, and film never sticks, goes in like a hot knife though butter, easiest part of developing film is loading, into reel

Helge · May 5, 2021

R.Gould said:
Yes, about 60 years ago, once in daylight, then eyes closed, then in a darkroom in the cupboard under the stairs, and I have never had any problems loading films either 35mm or 120 since, My first developing tank was made by Johnson's of hendon, long before Paterson tanks were around, when Paterson tanks arrived it was so much easier I have used them ever since, in fact I still have, somewhere, the very first dev tank that Paterson made, I still have some original system 4 tanks in use today, plus the newer super system 4 tanks, the only trouble I ever had loading a film was in a Hewes stainless steel reel, terrible things, took me nearly an hour to get it in, despite trying in daylight, Paterson tanks on average 1 minute to load 2 films, easiest thing in the world to do, and I NEVER scrub the reels, only thing I ever do is pour the wetting agent in, take the film out and put the reel to dry, I have even loaded damp reels without any problems, I have said it before and I'll say it again, run a pencil lead around the groves every now and again, and film never sticks, goes in like a hot knife though butter, easiest part of developing film is loading, into reel

Instead of just telling us how easy it is, it would be very helpful if you would tell us exactly the steps you go through.

Even after several hundred rolls of 120 film, I still once in a while struggle for a minute or so getting the leader into the slots, and even having the film jam and jump out of the tracks or feed slots, which results in having to start over.

It is not so much the additional time, it is more the added handling with dust, scratches and smudges and perhaps creasing of the film that bothers me.

Auer · May 5, 2021

RalphLambrecht said:
some good advise above but, maybe, the real solution is the new La Box from Imago;it lets you load AND process film in daylight. can anybody share experiences?

I have used a Lab-Box for a while, and it has it's uses.

I find it easy to load as long as you READ the manual and FOLLOW the directions. http://www.ars-imago.com/pdf/auto/ars-imago-001306.pdf
It can be finicky with various films, such as PET based ones. https://www.lab-box.it/petfilmlist
It's not optimal for C41, as you really cant put it in a waterbath. I made it work but a Jobo is much much easier for C41. (I have both)
In general, it's hard to beat for speed and convenience when processing ONE roll of B&W film at a time and I use mine often.
Pretty handy kitchen sink setup.

I use mine as a rotary processor so 300ml of chemistry.
I don't do stand developing so never tried that with a L-B.

Some may balk at the price, but to me its well worth it.
Also here in the U.S. Cinestill imports it and they do have great customer support, FWIW.

bernard_L · May 5, 2021

Helge said:
Instead of just telling us how easy it is, it would be very helpful if you would tell us exactly the steps you go through.

Although this was not addressed at me, I'll provide some form of answer. Some or all of which has probably already been stated in the 100+ posts so far.

Dry and clean reels. Rinse in warm water after the film has been put to hang. Separate the two halves for easier/faster drying. Periodically wash in hot 1% sodium carbonate, or dishwasher cycle.
I don't separate the film from the paper before starting with the reel. Not so keen to deal with the untamed film winding onto itself in the dark. Unwind to the start (end, actually) of film. Let the reel rest on the table, providing some tension by its weight. Diagonally cut the corners by a few mm. Gently curve the leader (tail) of the film onto the edges of the spiral, just in front of the "entrance"; the curvature keeps the film in check.
Pull (not push) the film through the ball bearing gates, and a few inches beyond.
One half of the spiral in each hand. Thumbs pressing the film onto the edges in front of the gate. Don't push above the void between the reels. Start alternate rotations.
Geeently pull the tape from the film. Not keen to let the tape (potentially) free itself and float in the developer. And the fireworks from tribo-electricity may be fun, but with film, no thank you; seems to me that film manufacturers have worked on that and the static is far less than a few decades ago.

I REALLY Hate Loading 120 on Patterson Reels

Jonno85uk

Pieter12

NB23

Vaughn

Michel Hardy-Vallée

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Wayne

RalphLambrecht

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grat

Wayne

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David Lingham

RalphLambrecht

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radiant

Helge

Helge

R.Gould

Helge

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bernard_L

I REALLY Hate Loading 120 on Patterson Reels

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