I don't like Avedon's work

[ic-racer]

Avedon’s American West came out while I was in art school getting my MFA. Myself and friends were pretty critical of Avedon at the time. I never got the book either.

However, seeing the images today offers a pleasant nostalgia of a time when I was so totally immersed in photography.

 

[DREW WILEY]

I accidentally ran into a copy of it on a used book seller's shelf not long ago, and refreshed my memory a little bit, but was not interesting in buying it. I spent more time back in own college days. But that bee guy all pasty skinhead-style, looking like a meth freak? Maybe that would be encountered in rural areas these days, but having come from an actual cowboy setting, anyone looking like that back then would have been in for a rough experience in the real West - an authentic depiction, not. Hippies weren't welcome either. Now there are meth labs all kinds of places back in the woods.

 

[Alex Benjamin]

Avedon was a close friend of James Baldwin, and, honestly, anybody who has earned the friendship and respect of Baldwin is OK in my book.

Robert Frank had the same kind of attitude when touring the country, a way to get attention, but with little depth, concocting stereotypes.

Say what, now?

 

[GregY]

Whether you like his nervous work or not, he was brilliant at attaining effect, so relative to himself, the whole brash gritty feel was appropriate. His revealing of the "underlying soul" of sitters was a calculated artifice - he just wore them out under hot lights until they grimaced. He did that to Marilyn Monroe, to the Royal Couple, to many others. And a number of images in American West were staged contrivances. The beekeeper playing a flute was infamous in that respect - he was imported from somewhere up north specifically for the photo session stunt.
There's probably plenty of information out there on his equipment style too; but I don't have time to bother with that today.

The Amon Carter Museum does have some crown jewels of photography which actually empathize with people of the West, like the work of Laura Gilpin. But I get the impression that Avedon was a diecast New Yorker all along, hunting down photo specimens as if he was bug collecting, seeking or downright fabricating NYC stereotypes of the West, as if Texas and the plains Sates even qualify to be accounted as part of the West.

no flute.... https://www.clevelandart.org/art/2005.143

 

[warden]

Say what, now?

I know it’s just too much

Hey wanna hear my favorite super-famous Ansel Adams quote? “F/64 was a mistake and the west coast blows; I’m moving to Yonkers.” - Ansel Adams

 

[DREW WILEY]

Whadda joik youse hear dat from? Easterners! I was at the end of the road at the Petrified Forest in AZ with my Sinar set up at the Blue Mesa overlook. An older couple with NY plates pulled up, and in her Brooklyn Accent the wife asks, "Whaddya takin a pictchah of? - a deah or a beah?" (as if bears were roaming around in that desert). The man comes up with a different accent, "What! No deer or bears? Stupid photogurpher!" Then a moment later, "Dang, I locked my keys in the car because of that stupid photogurpher". His wife replied, "Nehh, yeh locked yah keys in da cah because ya an iddddiiiot". I smiled and drove away. A ranger would be along soon to tell them that the nearest locksmith was in Flagstaff, a four hour round trip away, if he couldn't jimmy the door lock open himself. Poetic justice.

 

[Alex Benjamin]

I was at the end of the road at the Petrified Forest

Bogie, Bette Davis and Leslie Howard were all fantastic in that movie, but I'm pretty sure neither of them had a Brooklyn accent.

 

[Alex Benjamin]

I know it’s just too much

Hey wanna hear my favorite super-famous Ansel Adams quote? “F/64 was a mistake and the west coast blows; I’m moving to Yonkers.” - Ansel Adams

Makes me long for the days when only Ol' Ansel was everybody's favorite punching bag. Kids today starting to diss Avedon... What's this world coming to?...

 

[DREW WILEY]

I thought Avedon and Cindy Sherman were the only photographers the young generation knew about. I've been dissing both of them for decades, so by doing so, does that make me young? That's quite a compliment. Just like discovering a zit and imagining that I'm still a teenager. Actually, I'm only 25, but enjoy that age so much that I've repeated it three times.

Alex - you do know that Blue Mesa is an actual place, don't you, and not just a movie set? There are no towns there, and probably never were. It's an awfully bleak but beautiful place, easily seen from the viewpoint at the end of the road. There were some little ranches and Indian villages once in the greater Petrified Forest area, and perhaps one of them was named for Blue Mesa further away. The nearest small city is Holbrook.

I got the best shot the first time I was there, using good ole Ekta 64 sheet film, which handled the nuanced blue, violet, and grayish clay hues much better than my second experience using Velvia. No white sheet backdrop along, however.

 

[MattKing]

Actually, I'm only 25,

In base ??????

 

[Alex Benjamin]

Alex - you do know that Blue Mesa is an actual place, don't you, and not just a movie?

I learn something new every day .

That said, I've always wanted to visit the Petrified Forest because of the movie. Same with Paris, Texas.

 

[DREW WILEY]

I can't imagine Bogie or Bette Davis, along with a film crew, tromping around Blue Mesa itself. It would have been pretty sandy and slow going. No water. More up on the plateau of the Petrified Forest proper would have been more realistic, although the "town" of Blue Mesa is said to have been outside the Park somewhere, no doubt on what is now private property. But there's catch :

Interestingly, Warner Bros themselves list the shooting locations as : Red Rock State Park, CA; Lancaster, CA (definitely bleak and dusty);
three different Warner Brothers studios in Burbank, CA; but no mention at all of the Petrified Forest itself or any other place in Arizona.

Now you've got me wondering if the Eifel tower is in Texas, or somewhere else entirely where they eat snails?

Incidentally, I once briefly worked alongside the agent for Bette Davis, when he was trying to distance himself from Hollywood and sober himself up; but he eventually went back. A nasty cuss with a failing liver.

 

[loccdor]

I thought Avedon and Cindy Sherman were the only photographers the young generation knew about.

By and large the young generation doesn't know about photographers, period. Only Ansel and HCB and maybe that woman with the TLR since she trended on social media.

 

[DREW WILEY]

It's quite different here. I was cynically referring to those who went to the main Art Academy in this area, when knowing only about Avedon and Sherman. It has since closed down, although darkroom classes in Junior Colleges and Private Schools, and even a few High Schools are up and running again. The younger crowd is quite into film, albeit at an entry level 35mm scale. The high price of sheet film has discouraged all but the most determined young contact printers.

This area has a legacy of famous photographers, and quite a few well known ones are still around. Dorothea Lange lived right up the hill behind me; I interacted with her nephew quite a bit, who was son-in-law to Rondal Partridge, assistant to both Dorothea and AA (neither paid him well). Richard Misrach still lives on the hill. So do a number of others. The third generation Weston family still lives in the Carmel area. Many people in general still have an appreciation for the area's photographic heritage.

 

[loccdor]

That makes sense. Art students are their own animal and trends happen in that subculture. I'm not a fan of Avedon or Warhol either. Never liked the flashy modern type stuff, was always more into the traditional aesthetic of decades prior.

Dorothea Lange's most famous picture was in my school's history book - most people have seen that one, even if they don't know her name.

 

[Richard Man]

The more I look at Avedon's work, the more I like them, especially seeing the large eight feet tall portrait prints multiple times.

Pretty sure all of the "America's West" work used natural lights with reflectors etc. Laura Wilson wrote about it.

 

[Alex Benjamin]

Pretty sure all of the "America's West" work used natural lights with reflectors etc.

 

[Mike Lopez]

View attachment 392901

I like Friedlander’s portrait of Avedon better.

 

[Don_ih]

It stems from how Avedon was offered a MMA show before him, so he outright refused a subsequent offer, along with the terse quoted remark (much later he did accept).

Well, Drew, the internet loves to broadcast the petty grudges people have and tends to amplify the nasty things they say about each other. There is only one person online mentioning Kertesz and Avedon in the same breath, though. So, it's actually up to you to cite a genuine reference.

I would read that as all photography was considered of no artistic merit. Which was the case at the time. Atget certainly photographed similar scenes towards the end of his life, so Kertesz claim seems a bit fatitious.

I agree - but the quote is taken out of whatever context it was in. He may have been saying that he wasn't aware of people taking picture like he did, nor was he aware of anyone seriously pursuing photography as art. Where the quote is from is an internet dead end. It's referenced on the page I linked but they reference no longer exists. The beauty of a reference book that exists only while the bills are paid...

In BBC Master Photographers, Kertesz said about the same photo that the composition was absolutely modern and he had no idea is was modern.

 

[Arthurwg]

Some years back I ran into Avedon in NYC. When he looked at me it was like a strobe going off in my face. Rather intense.

Of course, Irving Penn was Avedon's main competition, both commercially and aesthetically. Avedon was always worried that Penn was the greater "artist," and that he would always be dismissed as a mere fashion photographer, as if that wasn't enough.

 

[pentaxuser]

His revealing of the "underlying soul" of sitters was a calculated artifice - he just wore them out under hot lights until they grimaced. He did that to Marilyn Monroe, to the Royal Couple, to many others.

Can I ask: Is that your conclusion from the expressions on their faces alone or on other corroborating evidence such as what he might have said in interviews or was known to have said as an aside to someone who was there at the picture taking or knew him well?

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[pentaxuser]

Some years back I ran into Avedon in NYC. When he looked at me it was like a strobe going off in my face. Rather intense.

I wonder how many of us that might also be said about? Maybe it just as well that we are not all connected to each other by Skype, I think it is called

pentaxuser

 

[BrianShaw]

Well at least we are able to view the works of those photographers rather than having to take their word about their abilities, equipment, or products.

 

[Don_ih]

Yes - we can all talk about the Bee Man photo, for instance, and descry his pasty countenance.

 

[MTGseattle]

*Segue alert*

Some of you may know this stuff, but as there seems to be a shift in the vernacular happening (everyone above 40 being called "boomer") I thought I would refresh my own knowledge.

baby Boomers 1946-1964
Gen X 1965-1980
Millenials (This one confused me) 1981-1996
Gen Z 1997-2009
Gen Alpha 2010-2024

When we say "the young kids don't know____" which group are we talking about? I would posit that it's everyone on Instagram or whichever mainly image sharing app is hot right now that reference each other but have no idea whose work they are collectively referencing or outright mimicking.

As to Avedon, my knowledge of his career is thin, but the stuff I do know doesn't bother me. Drew's airport example brought to mind the Calvin Klein Obsession ads from the early 90's, and I can't remember whose work that was. I need to hit the books as it were. There was also Calvin Klein fashion work done simultaneously by Vincent Gallo that had the "heroin chic" term applied to it.