I don't like Avedon's work

[Don_ih]

portraying "the soul" of the American west

Was that what he was doing? Seems to me he was essentially like a tourist taking pictures of interesting things - except his photos were of "characters". He didn't photograph them in situ. He posed them in front of a white backdrop. I don't see the soul of anything coming across there - just the exposed appearance of those individuals he selected. More attitude than soul.

"portraying the soul of the American West" was what he said he was attempting to do. Which, of course, he never did.

You beat me to it.

 

[Arthurwg]

I too find the idea of some hardened fashion photographer who's born, raised and lived his whole life in New York doing a project portraying "the soul" of the American west laughably absurd, at best, and sneering, mean spirited and cynical at worst..

Yes, you're not alone. Avedon faced intense criticism from all sides over these photos, perhaps because they didn't meet their brief or capture souls, and hey, what's a Manhattan aesthete doing here? But they are spectacular pictures none the less.

 

[BradS]

Yes, you're not alone. Avedon faced intense criticism from all sides over these photos, perhaps because they didn't meet their brief or capture souls, and hey, what's a Manhattan aesthete doing here? But they are spectacular pictures none the less.

Yes, technically excellent - nothing less than what one would expect from a craftsman of his caliber (except that sometimes the cropping is shockingly awful). I stand in awe of the skill and perseverance evidenced by the work. It stands as a monument to productivity and selective editing.
However, the awe quickly dissipates and I'm left to wonder...what was he trying to say? What was the point, the goal, the purpose?
Are we supposed to feel a connection for these people? or are we supposed to feel sorry for them, to feel pity for them? or are we supposed to only feel humbled by or worshipful of the photographer's (and his team's) skill and work ethic?
In a way, it's not unlike Diane Arbus' photos of freaks. It feels mean spirited, laughing, sneering, and haughty.

 

[BradS]

That would be true if "portraying the soul of the American West" was what he said he was attempting to do. Which, of course, he never did.

What he did say is this : "This is a fictional West. I don't think the West of these portraits is any more conclusive than the West of John Wayne."

It's mostly possible that Avedon did not know exactly what he was after when beginning this series, and that, as is often the case — Robert Frank's The Americans being a good case in point —, he figured out different paths as things went along, and as he was receiving proofs. We must remember that the project took seven years, in which Avedon did 752 sittings, exposed 17,000 sheets of film, most of which he destroyed (only 123 were left).

Was that what he was doing? Seems to me he was essentially like a tourist taking pictures of interesting things - except his photos were of "characters". He didn't photograph them in situ. He posed them in front of a white backdrop. I don't see the soul of anything coming across there - just the exposed appearance of those individuals he selected. More attitude than soul.

so, just more commercial work? Like fashion without beautiful people flaunting expensive outfits ?
Or perhaps, he was just exercising....like a music student playing scales?
Maybe presenting the west in contrast to New York? Beautiful, glitzy fashion photos == New York and grubby, unkempt, stark, non- beautiful working peole == the west? Is that it?
What is he trying to say?

I just can't escape the feeling that these photos are a New Yorker, not understanding the West, maybe not wanting to , not even trying to, maybe even subtly, subconsciously denigrating the west.
They feel cold and mean. How many of the subjects are amputated at a joint? Even the portrait on the cover has the subjects hands cut off at the wrists.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Dime a dozen in a technical sense. And the fact he wasted thousands of sheets of film machine-gunning away trying to pin down a few good shots speaks volumes on its own. And if what Alex quoted is true, it couldn't have been said better - it was a "fictional West".. "the John Wayne West". Might thoughts exactly. He was composing a fiction for sake of a particular urban audience. In that sense, I agree that he did it quite well, and that it deserves its place in recognition. It is, overall, quite an interesting work, especially from that particular season. It is him - brash and NYC nervous, even obnoxious, if someone finds that kind of signature characteristic somehow meritorious.

But I still decry the general lack of authenticity or even real empathy. He was collecting specimens for his museum, and never at heart did leave New York City with its shallow myopic stereotypes about the West. Probably why he needed such big glasses just to make any sense of it at all. I'm speaking facetiously, of course, and recognize his influence, but just don't find it my own cup of tea, or, er, cowboy coffee, that is.

There's a lot more "soul" in Soulsbyville, although I'm starting to find that area itself a little too crowded these days. I'll keep my favorite back roads to myself. Printed one of those shots the other day.

 

[BradS]

I frankly don't even see what it has to do with The American West.
It could just as well have been entitled, West Virginia.

 

[Nokton48]

As a Fashion Photographer, I think in a way, all he ever did was create his own world.

As a Master Craftsmen, I think he was at the very top of his game. A local Photographer Friend (his Father was a prominent local Architect who wanted me very much meet his Son) assisted Avedon, and showed me "test chromes" color 8x10. Hardly "dime a dozen" Mr. Drew, they were -utterly- fantastic! The expressions on the Assistants filling in for the models was priceless. Possibly terrified. He told me "Avedon lived like a King. He could snap his fingers and have anything he desired."

He composed fictions. Photographic tastes are subjective.

 

[DREW WILEY]

He wasn't the first. Just look at how Edward S. Curtis stereotyped the Indians of the West, and was paid to do exactly that. He did it far more eloquently, however, and created beautiful images lending dignity to his subjects, even if non-authentically attired at times.

Avedon is almost comedic in that West work, just like he was with all his corny NYC fashionista shots. He apparently knew that himself.
Being gritty tongue in cheek was his art niche.

Having seen stacks of LF shots, even on early color sheet film, by other notable studio photographers catering to the rich and famous, I don't see why I should admire Avedon's alleged skill if it took such ridiculous volumes of film to accomplish it. Hurrell's key assistants certainly didn't need any authoritarian snap of the fingers, from what the remaining one told me. They were more well-trained collaborators.

Avedon didn't even print his own work. That wasn't uncommon among professionals, since pro labs were around; but that fact certainly limits what I myself would define as a "craftsman". More just an orchestrator.

Another Noi Yoik Joik case in my eyes, from my own Western point of view, along with the social status to need a psychiatrist, just to show you are wealthy enough for that kind of service. (One of my college roommates was the son of a NYC psychiatrist, and it took him most of his life to recover from his childhood home psychoanalysis sessions.) Yeah, I admit, tit for tat - one set of stereotypes for another.

 

[cliveh]

I find his work a bit samey. White background, large format and that's it. But perhaps I'm not looking hard enough.

 

[Don_ih]

so, just more commercial work?

My guess is, he didn't want them to be commercial-style, that he was trying to do something maybe a little bit like Walker Evans. It may be harder to break from a style than you wish it would be. And anything he did was positioned to influence commercial work, anyway.

None of those photos have that authentic feeling Walker Evans depression-era portraits have. Likely because there really isn't much that's authentic about them. But Avedon wasn't a documentary photographer. That he doesn't capture the soul of those people or the region isn't necessarily anything he even thought was desirable.

 

[Arthurwg]

What is he trying to say?

I just can't escape the feeling that these photos are a New Yorker, not understanding the West, maybe not wanting to , not even trying to, maybe even subtly, subconsciously denigrating the west.
They feel cold and mean. How many of the subjects are amputated at a joint? Even the portrait on the cover has the subjects hands cut off at the wrists.

I'm starting to agree. I think these pictures show a total lack of sympathy or empathy. Indeed they seem intended, consciously or unconsciously, to make the viewer feel "superior."As French sociologist and critic Jean Baudrillard might have put it, the rich like pictures of the poor to show them how far they've come.

But you will admit that they capture your attention and demand intensive scrutiny. And that is a major accomplishment.

 

[BradS]

I'm starting to agree. I think these pictures show a total lack of sympathy or empathy. Indeed they seem intended, consciously or unconsciously, to make the viewer feel "superior."As French sociologist and critic Jean Baudrillard might have put it, the rich like pictures of the poor to show them how far they've come.

But you will admit that they capture your attention and demand intensive scrutiny. And that is a major accomplishment.

I've never seen these prints in person, though I'd like to. I do remember flipping through the book on several different occasions, really wanting to like it, feeling like I should like it but really just feeling empty, nothing.

 

[Don_ih]

I'm starting to agree. I think these pictures show a total lack of sympathy or empathy. Indeed they seem intended, consciously or unconsciously, to make the viewer feel "superior."

I find that a strange idea. I think he could take photos of these people as though they are statues he doesn't really understand yet that doesn't suggest any kind of superiority. Is there a reason to feel superior to an oilworker? Do you feel superior to people who have to do manual labour? people who have to get dirty? (I know nothing about you personally, so this isn't an accusation - it's a genuine and general question. And a statement: I don't feel superior to any of those people, nor do I see a reason to in those photos.)

 

[DREW WILEY]

I will give him credit for a lot more experimentation than just the predictable white sheet point-blank style most know. Some of it has been resurrected from his earlier days and only recently printed (on absurdly large scale of course, even from 35mm originals). It skips my mind at what venues that occurred; I don't follow him, or really much of anything going on these days of ostentatious artistic character. I'm frankly sick of it.

In terms of prints per se, I've never seen anything or real nuanced quality, or what one would call a "fine print". That was apparently not his thing. He just went for decibels minus any tuning fork, it seems - shock and awe, if you can excuse that particularly disgusting expression at the moment.

 

[BrianShaw]

Let’s face it… who really care what Drew, APUG, or Photrio think. Avendon certainly doesn’t. He’s made his mark while others only blow smoke about the mark they say they made.

 

[Nokton48]

Let’s face it… who really care what Drew, APUG, or Photrio think. Avendon certainly doesn’t. He’s made his mark while others only blow smoke about the mark they say they made.

+1.

I'm done with this thread.

 

[Don_ih]

I'm done with this thread.

Congratulations. That's ... unremarkable.

There's nothing wrong with discussing Avedon even though

who really care what Drew, APUG, or Photrio think. Avendon certainly doesn’t.

If you want to limit your discussion to things that have a real impact, you'll be perennially silent. Our discussions here are amongst ourselves - and you can only expect that the topics will point outward.

Not wanting to engage in the discussion and not wanting to follow the discussion should result in no comment - not these "Oh, go **** yourself and shut up" comments. It ruins the fun.

 

[BrianShaw]

Discuss to your hearts content. My point is simple, Avendon has made his mark in history while the rest simply flap their gums. That’s fine. It’s what critical thinking yields and ‘Im all for it. Im just sayin’

 

[MattKing]

Moderator hat on:
Folks.
While we may be talking about the "American West", at Photrio we are not at the "O.K. Carral".
Kindly tamp it down!

 

[BrianShaw]

Hi Matt. Thanks for your intervention but I think we’re okay.

Hi Brad. I actually like his work. It is what it is.

 

[Don_ih]

I think we’re okay.

We are. I'm pretty sure we can talk to one another without supervision.

 

[Don_ih]

Avendon has made his mark in history while the rest simply flap their gums.

So the upshot is it's pointless to talk about anyone who has "made his mar" unless you yourself have made your mark? So the vast vast vast majority of people should never express any opinion about .... anything? That's a swell educational model.

 

[BrianShaw]

So the upshot is it's pointless to talk about anyone who has "made his mar" unless you yourself have made your mark? So the vast vast vast majority of people should never express any opinion about .... anything? That's a swell educational model.

That’s a bit of a stretch from what I intended, but I see where you got that from.i do have a bit of skepticism when there’s (what I perceive as) too much “trust me, I know what I’m talking about and have a loud opinion” where credibility is based only upon that. Feel free to ignore me because what do I know? Opinions are like.., we all have one and they all stink. Im okay with that.

 

[Don_ih]

Feel free to ignore me because what do I know?

I don't ignore people. I don't think people should be silenced because I disagree with them.

In the meantime, if you have an issue with a particular opinion or opinionated person, it would be better to direct what you're saying in a more particular way than try to dismiss the entirety of the conversation.

I think Avedon is very influential, and I think the American West series is quite interesting. But I can see why it could be considered all flash and no substance. Avedon's style was impeccable. I think there is room for discussion as to whether there was much more than style involved.

 

[BrianShaw]

We’re basically in agreement. Peace.