I don't have kids but..

[Vaughn]

Bath tub pictures, nudie pics of childhood innocence, that kind of stuff.

Any child nudity or near nudity can now be called kiddie porn regardless of the intent of the person taking the picture.

Which, unfortunately, is why I have not shared many of the image of my triplets I took with an SX-70 before they learned to crawl.

 

[BrianShaw]

It hasn't been. See examples above where someone else and I outline where we've done it just fine. Key is getting permission and not being a creep.

And in addition to that... being in a proper context is key.

 

[MartinCrabtree]

The more restrictive society has become the worse it gets. In fact your children are in more danger from "Uncle Charlie" than any photographer at the neighborhood pool.

The paranoia caused by media distortion of truth is epidemic and causes more problems than would otherwise occur. Witness the weather report now. "Thunderstorms this afternoon" has been replaced by "severe dangerous storms likely" that goes on to describe what may happen and people are sucking it up gleefully. Dangerous criminal on the loose.................details at 11. Wouldn't I need that information NOW?? It's all to pull you into the mob mentality and keep you glued to the tube/internet/ect. Unfortunately there's a grain of sand at the beach of fact that allows it to go on. The saddest part is we're turning on each other for no real reason. Many don't know their neighbors names when it used to be we visited them and had cookouts and parties. Sad state of affairs.

Thanks for letting me rant a bit.

Would I be able to take this photograph (circa 1981) nowdays? Or would some "good citizen" knock me out and relieve me of my camera?
​

 

[Richard S. (rich815)]

In the NYTimes link you posted the father found his daughter BEING RAPED. This is a far cry from finding someone taking pictures of your child, don't you agree? I really don't think the two can be equated or even compared. Assaulting the photographer would be overreacting, don't you think?

Oh, BTW, I have a daughter, now 37, and three granddaughters, 4, 5, and 7.

Yes, and as I said it was an extreme example but again along somewhat similar lines. If I thought someone had taken photos of my little girl in her swimsuit for some kind of sexual gratification my blood would boil and I'm not sure how I'd react. Kill? Of course not. Smack him upside the head? Maybe...consequences be damned...

 

[bvy]

It hasn't been. See examples above where someone else and I outline where we've done it just fine. Key is getting permission and not being a creep.

Add me to your list. I routinely ask people with children for pictures in the manner described -- medium format camera in hand and cards on the ready to hand out. I've met some nice people and gotten some great pictures. If someone has a problem with my motives, it's their problem, not mine. I'm totally upfront about what I'm doing.

 

[BrianShaw]

... If I thought someone had taken photos of my little girl in her swimsuit for some kind of sexual gratification my blood would boil and I'm not sure how I'd react..

I agree, but... How would you know the intent? Assume, or would you ask the photographer?

 

[cliveh]

What I find sad is how so much of the innocent joy of photographing children without any bad intent has been removed from our lives.

Creepiness should be prevented, but the normal appreciation of children should be encouraged.

I could not agree more.

 

[winger]

It's hard to disagree (although I think you mean p[a]edophiles), but let's not forget that the place children are most in danger of abuse of any sort (including sexual abuse) is in the family home, at the hands of family members.

This unfortunately is something media and politicians find it almost impossible to acknowledge, and therefore the image of the single middle-aged man who is a secret predator on children is promulgated - it is, after all, easier to do so than admit to ourselves that fathers, brothers, uncles (and mothers, sisters, aunts) can be responsible.

Indeed, the last time I made this point at APUG (and it is one based in a decade's worth of experience in working with and for the victims of childhood sexual abuse) it was dismissed as absurd. However, the facts are as they are - at least in the UK, but I would be very surprised indeed if it were not also true in the US ....

This is definitely true when talking of physical abuse.
There are also people who pass around photos of children they've never met for use in stimulating the imagination of other pedophiles. Since those happen on deep web sites, there are few stats on where they got them, etc…

While what he did was legal, I think it pretty much defies common sense. I don't think there'd be a market for street photos of that type these days either (legit, gallery-type, etc..). I think the death threats for it are a bit beyond necessary, though. In a smaller town, the rumor mill will likely make it pretty difficult for him to do much without everyone watching in the future.

 

[RattyMouse]

What I find sad is how so much of the innocent joy of photographing children without any bad intent has been removed from our lives.

Creepiness should be prevented, but the normal appreciation of children should be encouraged.

So true. I was walking in Shanghai this weekend and came across in the old city area a group of kids, maybe four of them all around 4-5 years old, playing some street game together. They were so happy, so intent on this game that it would have made an awesome picture and one easy to snap. Yet in today's world I dont think shooting kids is acceptable so I declined to take the shot. It was totally harmless, IMO, but I just let them be. A shame as their happiness was palpable. It made me feel 5 years old again as I could still remember that feeling as a child.

 

[j-dogg]

Some uppity Christian mom jumped down my throat for doing a flipping roll change on my RB67 on a bench next to her while she was filming a Christian music video. A simple roll change (well on the RB67 it isn't exactly simple but yeah)

Of course, being Atheist I was glad to "inform her of my First Amendment Rights and that it was a public beach and I could shoot the whole roll of film right here and legally she could do nothing about it, but I wouldn't waste my precious Velvia 50 on a crappy fly-by-night piece of religious propaganda anyway. And that she had better pick up all these empty water bottles on the beach she left or I'll call the park rangers and have you fined for littering."

 

[Mainecoonmaniac]

And that she had better pick up all these empty water bottles on the beach she left or I'll call the park rangers and have you fined for littering."

What? littering on God's great earth? She's looking into heaven, but hasn't looked down to see her litter. :confused:

 

[Mainecoonmaniac]

What on earth?

And that she had better pick up all these empty water bottles on the beach she left or I'll call the park rangers and have you fined for littering."

What? littering on God's great earth? She's looking into heaven, but hasn't looked down to see her litter. :confused:

 

[blansky]

Back to the American confusion of nudity vs sexuality, I was invited to play hockey a few months ago against a team from Austria, that was on vacation touring around the US and wanted to play at the Snoopy Rink in Sonoma County.

We had no idea how good they were so we put a team together, and played them. They weren't very good but they had a girl on the team of about 25, who was the daughter of one of the guys playing. Afterwards they all came into the dressing room and I talked a couple of minutes to the girl who was sitting across from me. Her English wasn't great but I asked about their trip.

Then she proceeded to strip down naked, walk without a towel down to the shower area where there are about 4 shower heads and then shower with her team and ours.

We did a double take and tried not to be obvious and sort of left them to their shower, and got back to the locker area. She nor the rest of their team had the slightest problem with their nudity or commingling.

I thought to myself, we are so fucked up in this country. So silly and sexually repressed.

 

[OptiKen]

Did you take any pictures?

Back to the American confusion of nudity vs sexuality, I was invited to play hockey a few months ago against a team from Austria, that was on vacation touring around the US and wanted to play at the Snoopy Rink in Sonoma County.

We had no idea how good they were so we put a team together, and played them. They weren't very good but they had a girl on the team of about 25, who was the daughter of one of the guys playing. Afterwards they all came into the dressing room and I talked a couple of minutes to the girl who was sitting across from me. Her English wasn't great but I asked about their trip.

Then she proceeded to strip down naked, walk without a towel down to the shower area where there are about 4 shower heads and then shower with her team and ours.

We did a double take and tried not to be obvious and sort of left them to their shower, and got back to the locker area. She nor the rest of their team had the slightest problem with their nudity or commingling.

I thought to myself, we are so fucked up in this country. So silly and sexually repressed.

 

[SuzanneR]

It's astonishing to me that we have become so suspicious of photographers who might want to make some pictures at a public pool, and we aren't troubled in the least by being perpetually monitored by surveillance cameras in virtually every place we travel in public.

 

[BrianShaw]

Indeed. And that goes for he full-body scans at the airport also! But the chances of those being fodder for self-pleasuring seem a lot lower than pics of kiddies in bathing suits, or any other clothing.

It's astonishing to me that we have become so suspicious of photographers who might want to make some pictures at a public pool, and we aren't troubled in the least by being perpetually monitored by surveillance cameras in virtually every place we travel in public.

 

[mooseontheloose]

Indeed. And that goes for he full-body scans at the airport also! But the chances of those being fodder for self-pleasuring seem a lot lower than pics of kiddies in bathing suits, or any other clothing.

That may be true, but it could also be true that people get turned on by things we don't think are an issue. In this example, many people assume the photographer to be a creep for photographing kids at a pool, but would have no problem if he asked for permission in a park or other situation. But who's to say he wouldn't get off on that? So many are willing to assume the worst, especially of male photographers, when in fact 99% of them are probably just regular guys. That being said, we do live in an age where many people do NOT do the right thing, are concerned with their own gratification (and I don't mean sexual here), and, combined with the questionable things that appear on the internet, it makes it hard to trust anyone.

(As a personal example, I once worked at a living history museum in Toronto where we dressed in period costume from the 1860s. We had a photographer taking photos of the costumed interpreters (we were pretty much covered from head to foot) and some of those images appeared on a sex site for people who got off on things like that. We never knew who it was, but dealing with hundreds of tourists daily meant you had to assume that the majority of the people there just wanted a picture of you as a record of their trip, and nothing more. In the end, I stopped worrying about it, as I can't do anything with a photograph I have no control over.)

 

[fotch]

I guess i must be one of those "crazy" people. If someone was photographing my grand daughters while swimming i would kindly ask him to stop and delete any photos that he has of them and if he refused, he would kindly be "knocked out" and his camera would never be seen again. I would also be nice and call the ambulance for him.

 

[pbromaghin]

This subject has caused me to do a lot of remembering of what it was like to grow up in that community. These are very peacable, friendly people, strongly influenced by Scandinavian reticence, who wouldn't dream of taking your picture without asking, and would expect the same of you. But if you mess with their kids, you better expect a ferocious, sudden, and violent reaction. If I saw that dumbass doing what he is doing in that picture, I would go up to him and say, "Are you out of your mind?". In that culture, the only reason you would ever sneak around in the bushes is if you are doing something of which you are ashamed. Public shaming is widely used in small communities to enforce standards of behavior, and from his statements, it appears Fargo is still small enough for it to be effective.

I also remembered something that should give everybody some pause in considering this story.

Not too very long ago, Fargo was jerked, ripped, torn out of its somnambulance by the case of a popular, locally-born-and-raised young woman being abducted, raped, mutilated and killed by a registered sex offender. She was brutally used before her death. I can only imagine the degree of heightened awareness of any surreptitious behavior that this brings to that community.

 

[Maris]

Photographing children as well as anybody else in public is a balance of rights and obligations, at least it is here in Australia.

The assumption is that in exchange for free movement in public society, without prior notice, without permissions, identity papers, or supervision one sets aside the concept of personal privacy. It's a fair bargain and assumes that one will be on one's best behaviour following the "nothing to hide" principle. There is conversely no right to enter public space, behave badly, and then insist that no one notices, no one records.

But the bargain doesn't apply to children who, at least in theory are under the control of parents or guardians. Children are not free agents and therefore cannot make the tacit agreement to exchange privacy for freedom. The bargain also doesn't apply to people protected by a court order, people in a witness protection program, undercover police officers, covert agents, and some military operatives.

 

[benjiboy]

The way things are these days if I'm out with my camera I avoid getting my camera out if I see children I walk the other way.

 

[Mainecoonmaniac]

Puritanical values and violence

I thought to myself, we are so fucked up in this country. So silly and sexually repressed.

Does this explain why kiddies, cameras and pools don't mix in America?

http://www.salon.com/2015/07/13/5_american_sex_norms_that_europeans_will_never_understand_partner/

 

[pdeeh]

That was quite an interesting little article, but I think her final suggestion a trifle bizarre

 

[BrianShaw]

Interesting, but I'm afraid more than just the final suggestion fails to resonate with me. But then again, most of my non-US experience is in the UK and they aren't really European... are they?

 

[pdeeh]

I consider myself European, but I'm not sure that's particularly the case for many of my compatriots. More's the pity.
But you have to make allowances for me as I'm some sort of dangerous subversive pinko Euro Liberal.
Hmm.
Are we off at a wild enough tangent yet?