I am done with negatives - a new begin on cyanotypes and more

*please move to different forum if you think this is not appropriate for the Alternative processes... I am in doubt.

After reading Koraks "Whither Hybridia" post I have picked up on the long idea I had in investigating using a printer to print directly cyanotypes.
The basic idea was to fill a toner with for example FAC and then print on paper. After some discussion and thinking, I decided to take an old HP printer-fax. I had some old cartridges completely dried that I would fill with FAC. The first tries were not a succes, no ink on the paper. Finally I found that there was just not yet enough liquid in the cartridge.
For now I have just been using the copier part for example with some dried leaves on the glass.
this method can print direct the image with FAC on the paper. I then expose with UV, and develop with brushing on Kferri. Of course the possibilities are unlimited.
Let me share my first example, here some leaves on the glass, pressing the copy button to print in FAC expose for 10 minutes UV and develop with Kferri, then 10 minute toning with Haritaki.
the HP 901 cartridge - here filled with 10ml dest water, 2gr FAC 2ml of denatured alcohol, about 10ml water there after. (this is ongoing experiment)

Process
- use copier-printer to print FAC on paper (bypassing the digital negative)
- expose to UV
- develop with Kferri
- for this one toning with Haritaki



Just as a warning, this is experimental, so only use on printers and cartridges you can spare

A friend of mine has a limited-edition book of "weeds of California" ( yes, I know it sounds sort of weird! ). The book was made from 1:1 size mounted prints of the plants -sometimes including roots- on scanner glass, and the prints were high resolution, glossy color, and beautiful. There is a real art to placing the plants on the glass or on a photogram or lumen print. This is a neat idea.

That’s really cool, @NedL Back in the olden days plant and flower samples were dried and mounted to heavy paper treated with a preservative. I still have my collection from the 1970’s. Arranging the specimens is, indeed, an art. I’d love to see your friend’s portfolio!

Jan de Jong said:

*please move to different forum if you think this is not appropriate for the Alternative processes... I am in doubt.

After reading Koraks "Whither Hybridia" post I have picked up on the long idea I had in investigating using a printer to print directly cyanotypes.
The basic idea was to fill a toner with for example FAC and then print on paper. After some discussion and thinking, I decided to take an old HP printer-fax. I had some old cartridges completely dried that I would fill with FAC. The first tries were not a succes, no ink on the paper. Finally I found that there was just not yet enough liquid in the cartridge.
For now I have just been using the copier part for example with some dried leaves on the glass.
this method can print direct the image with FAC on the paper. I then expose with UV, and develop with brushing on Kferri. Of course the possibilities are unlimited.
Let me share my first example, here some leaves on the glass, pressing the copy button to print in FAC expose for 10 minutes UV and develop with Kferri, then 10 minute toning with Haritaki.
the HP 901 cartridge - here filled with 10ml dest water, 2gr FAC 2ml of denatured alcohol, about 10ml water there after. (this is ongoing experiment)

Process
- use copier-printer to print FAC on paper (bypassing the digital negative)
- expose to UV
- develop with Kferri
- for this one toning with Haritaki


View attachment 401157
Just as a warning, this is experimental, so only use on printers and cartridges you can spare

Click to expand...

What an interesting concept!

I have an old printer lying around with cartridges that could be refilled with many things - heck maybe even a kallitype printer...
Digital negs have always been the tricky part for me, especially having to find suitable quality media here in Australia.

I need to think on this a bit.

Probably the biggest problem will be lining up a bunch of stuff to print .. You would need to do a quite a few prints in one session to avoid wasting sensitiser.
And possibly problems finding paper that will work with the process as well as with the print head.

@Jan de Jong WOW!!! We went back & forth last night a bit bouncing ideas (really, the idea is yours, let that be clear) and you immediately went ahead and your your hands (inkjet nozzles) dirty. I'm blown away by the result, to be honest. If this is one of your first tries, I wonder if there's anything left to improve upon! I would have expected some problems with streaking, bleeding etc. What you seem to have got is a perfectly defined print, and I'm sure that you could easily linearize the process if you so desired.

gbroadbridge said:

Probably the biggest problem will be lining up a bunch of stuff to print .. You would need to do a quite a few prints in one session to avoid wasting sensitiser.

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That's a valid point from a practical perspective. Maybe something like an EcoTank series printer would be a solution for this. I have an old 3880 (which I'm not going to sacrifice for these experiments as I'm having too much fun making regular color prints, LOL) that uses refillable cartridges. Something like that could also work.

Jan also pitched a very interesting idea in the comments on the blog he linked to about printing onto something like x-ray film so you get an inkjet-printed silver gelatin negative. While that may sound totally bonkers at first glance, it's actually a brilliant idea as you could fairly easily make a negative that has high blocking power and that exploits a pos/neg approach, which will actually play on the strengths of the inkjet printer. One of the key problems when inkjet printing negatives for alt. process printing in the regular way is that you end up with a troublesome transition in the high densities (which will become the low densities and the whites on the final print). If you turn that around and make the black inkjet printed parts also become the dense parts in the silver gelatin negative, things start to work a whole lot better all of a sudden. I've tried that with an internegative route and the result was pretty convincing when using the inkjet as a quasi-halftone screen machine. Jan's idea could simplify this process dramatically. It might even be possible to use something like imagesetter film.

This is great....well done, Jan.

I had this idea quite some time ago and I even set aside a cheap old hp printer for this purpose whose cartridges were easy to refill and played around to see if I can print some food dye first and eventually perhaps silver nitrate or salt and make salt print. Experimented with the food dye a bit and if I remember, there was too much clogging in the cartridge and I gave up on it. Then I stopped pursuing it (on philosophical grounds!) because I figured it would be so much close to actual inkjet printing, it would have been barely alternative processing any more. Might as well do the inkjet printing then.

koraks said:

Jan also pitched a very interesting idea in the comments on the blog he linked to about printing onto something like x-ray film so you get an inkjet-printed silver gelatin negative. While that may sound totally bonkers at first glance, it's actually a brilliant idea as you could fairly easily make a negative that has high blocking power and that exploits a pos/neg approach, which will actually play on the strengths of the inkjet printer. One of the key problems when inkjet printing negatives for alt. process printing in the regular way is that you end up with a troublesome transition in the high densities (which will become the low densities and the whites on the final print). If you turn that around and make the black inkjet printed parts also become the dense parts in the silver gelatin negative, things start to work a whole lot better all of a sudden. I've tried that with an internegative route and the result was pretty convincing when using the inkjet as a quasi-halftone screen machine. Jan's idea could simplify this process dramatically. It might even be possible to use something like imagesetter film.

Click to expand...

Later I had somewhat similar idea - instead of using an x-ray film, print on the sensitized paper a suitable water soluble but UV dense ink (perhaps red or yellow in a dye inkjet printer) as a one time negative (like DTP for photogravure.) Do a blanket exposure and the dye then comes out during developing, washing. Never tried that either.

:Niranjan.

nmp said:

I had this idea quite some time ago and I even set aside a cheap old hp printer for this purpose whose cartridges were easy to refill and played around to see if I can print some food dye first and eventually perhaps silver nitrate or salt and make salt print. Experimented with the food dye a bit and if I remember, there was too much clogging in the cartridge and I gave up on it. Then I stopped pursuing it (on philosophical grounds!) because I figured it would be so much close to actual inkjet printing, it would have been barely alternative processing any more. Might as well do the inkjet printing then.

Click to expand...

Similar thoughts and ideas. Always was thinking more (since the 80ties ) of adding an LED or laser to the print head for exposing photo paper modulating to expose paper etc.
Left the idea because it would be probably not having the resolution of an enlarger.
Been thinking in line of using inkjet printer for printing over RA4 paper to make a color mask then developing which would rinse the dye off leaving whatever printed chemically.
Reading Koraks post as link in my first message gives a run through of a lot of ideas, dlp etc. That led to the thought again to why not print the cyanotype emulsion in the print head.
The full FAC + Kferri will probably not print for more than a day, what about corrosion clogging etc.
So first started with FAC only, not knowing if that will work at all. - So it works. It sprays ink like on a normal print, very fine dots. ( the alcohol probably helps great for absorbing it quick also)

Similar thought - why do it, why not just use ink... well this will result in a cyanotype not an inkjet print. It can be manipulated, toned etc. That thought basically convinced me to push on.

Processes to consider printing with only FAC
- print on blank paper - uv expose - develop with kferri
- print on blank paper - add silver nitrate coating - UV expose develop (Vandyke)
- print on paper with coating fo Kferri

Process with only a salt solution - Salt print..
Process with only Thio in the cartridge - print on film or photo paper..
Process with developer - print on xray or photo paper

So in view of printhead it is best to take the process from a component that will work and turn the rest round that. That avoids having the silver in the cartridge but just Salt or FAC.

It is just adding a new way to do these applications, not replacing the traditional craft or process. It seems relative simple, and is very reproducible.

Paper - yes same considerations as with the traditional way, the paper needs to allow for the wet treatment.

I will add later some detailed images to show the inkjet spray, which is equal to what you see with a loupe on normal inkjet btw.


cheers
Jan.

Jan de Jong said:

So in view of printhead it is best to take the process from a component that will work and turn the rest round that.

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Smart, I like that!

I'd love to see the additional inkjet pattern illustration.

Ok here some results of this evening. They are pictures from my phone not scans, so white balance is a bit off. Image still drying so they will darken slightly.
it is on cheap aquarell paper, if i leave it un-toned then the blue will bleach, so I have toned these with the same Haritaki as yesterday.
the macro pictures show the fine in spots, no smear etc. This is a cheap HP copier-printer. So the dither quality will depend on the printer you use this on.
For A4 it is totally usable in my opinion.


I decided to add some new FAC to the cartridge. I have chosen for now following

10ml of dest water
2gram of FAC
2 gram of Den.Alcohol - Sprititus.

With all my printing it filled about 3ml in the cartridge. It should start printing somewhat denser since more FAC is present.


Print from computer, scan of the same leaves. added some contrast, this resulted that the background is no longer pure white though.

Printing from computer I don not know which setting is best yet but I selected HP Photo matt. The banding from the draft printing on the copier mode is now gone.



Detail



Detail top of the page where the gray background just starts


Detail of the leave and background.

That looks pretty darn good!

The grey background is just a matter of linearizing the process - if that's the way you want to proceed to begin with. Maybe just have fun with it as it is?

koraks said:

That looks pretty darn good!

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yes perfectly usable, amazed how little trouble the catridge has been given. Nozzle look also shinny. As i would be at most damaging a cartridge I will continue the experiment. Awaiting some empty used ones so I can try with thio or developer. Cant wait to try this on photo paper or x-ray film.

Jan de Jong said:

yes perfectly usable, amazed how little trouble the catridge has been given. Nozzle look also shinny. As i would be at most damaging a cartridge I will continue the experiment. Awaiting some empty used ones so I can try with thio or developer. Cant wait to try this on photo paper or x-ray film.

Click to expand...

FAC may be a really nice fit for inkjet printing as it is highly soluble in water so clogging is at a minimum. I am not sure about the others. You will just have to try, but my guess is they won't be trouble-free like FAC.

Good work!

:Niranjan.

P.S. You don't have to limit yourself to a photo process even with this method. For example, print with CuSO4 and develop with ferrocyanide to make cuprotype. There must be more example of making a pigment by reaction of A and B out there. Sky is the limit!

Agree with @nmp. Also, it may help to add a little glycol to the mix it the cartridge/head is going to sit idle for a few days or longer.

nmp said:

FAC may be a really nice fit for inkjet printing as it is highly soluble in water so clogging is at a minimum. I am not sure about the others. You will just have to try, but my guess is they won't be trouble-free like FAC.

Good work!

:Niranjan.

P.S. You don't have to limit yourself to a photo process even with this method. For example, print with CuSO4 and develop with ferrocyanide to make cuprotype. There must be more example of making a pigment by reaction of A and B out there. Sky is the limit!

Click to expand...

Working on it, pre coated the sheet to be printed with Kferri, but result is more contrast and Kferri washes of very bad, also lighter details are lost. Probably all a matter of tweaking and knowing how to control also the ink output better.

koraks said:

Agree with @nmp. Also, it may help to add a little glycol to the mix it the cartridge/head is going to sit idle for a few days or longer.

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I have to look if I have glycol, also have to see first if it does not polymerize with the FAC, no experience with that.

Day 3 of the cartridge btw, I have to fill it up regularly with a few ml of the stock solution.
Also have to remember to use only the mono setting on the printer

I don't think the FAC will polymerize glycol just like that. If it does, please let me know because I could exploit that...but I'm pretty sure it takes some other stuff to get that process going.

Jan de Jong said:

Also have to remember to use only the mono setting on the printer

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I think you can make some pretty nifty stuff if you don't! Although I suppose the colored inkjet dyes wash out during processing?

Update
I will give a small update for those interested. Yesterday after many prints and trying different papers the cartridge stopped printing, refill also did not help. If fiddled a long time with the remedies known, taking the cartridge in a bath wiping nozzles shaking etc. 17 years with 16 doing nothing is quite a bit anyway. So on to the second cartridge, filling it first with water to see if I could print it empty. This was also a dried out but not so much as the first cartridge. It took anyway 8ml water of the 14ml that it could take when empty. I made some 50 copies to see if it would start working and long and behold it started printing, and nice black (ink) too. After some 20 prints even the draft prints of the copier modes was perfect. I turned the papers round and printed the back to get as much black toner out. After that it could fit about 8ml of 20gr/100ml FAC-dest Water. I did not add anything else.
Of and print many copies again. After some 30 prints it started printing more and more FAC.

The learning here is that printing only FAC and water it does not absorb as well as the previous mix where i had 2ml of Spiritus added. This is not a problem during print or exposure but it is when applying the Kferri. It gives steaks when brushing it on. So i will add again on the next fill the first mix.
Meanwhile some empty cartridges should arrive the next days to have more variants on hand.


A print from this evening just brushed with Kferri and rinsed, before toning with Haritaki.
You can see on the top the uneven coverage due to some wash-off. I am also still not happy with the darkest blue, the toning does help a bit with that though.
I like all the gradations of the grayscale though.

Some info about the printer and cartridges.
I am printing on an HP Office jet 4500 which uses the HP 901 XL cartridges. There is no lock on these and you can refill.
The printer only is sensing when the print-head resistors the over temperature meaning low ink, it will then start printing slow or give a warning to replace the toner. You can press cancel and continue.

After refill of the cartridge the printer wants to do a calibration and ask for a blank sheet of paper, you press OK and then immediately Cancel. It will then do some thinking and you can start printing with the re-filled cartridge.

About the first cartridge
It had been sitting drying out for 15 years at least and after the first fill it printed FAC fine, but the 3 day with water and alcohol probably dissolved ink from the inside and must have been slowly building up in front of the nozzle. With a of shaking there is FAC and remains of black coming out the print-head so this one will need some rinsing and probably will run fine after that. I dont see and corrosion all looks shiny. I am getting more confident that this use is not very harmful on the short run anyway.

Update
I just made ready the latest print with the improved ink FAC solution. It keeps better on the paper no longer streaking when brushing the Kferri on.
now also the darks stay in place.


cheers
Jan.

Short followup Fern print in previous post now dried down had been toned short 5 mins with Haritaki as part of development. Dried down nice dark blue-grey.


400dpi scan

Another test with a scan from my Hong Kong pictures. Very happy with the deep black tones. Looks a winner this process. For now the cartridges are emptied, I have to clean them because without initial cleaning more black crusted ink was clogging. Will keep you updated when I have the next process dialed in.
Certainly worth a try if you have an old printer laying round.


400 dpi scan



detail of the dots partial scan on 1600 dpi

I won't be having much time rest of this week though.

cheers
Jan.

Jan, those prints are stellar! I love them! And they're every bit as good as what you'd get with the regular 'digital negative' route - but this process skips a step and saves materials. It's awesome!

I must say I also love the toning. I'm tempted to buy some of that Haritaki stuff. What kind/type do you use? I've had a quick peek and see a powder sold at around €1/gram in ca. 100g quantities.

koraks said:

Jan, those prints are stellar! I love them! And they're every bit as good as what you'd get with the regular 'digital negative' route - but this process skips a step and saves materials. It's awesome!

I must say I also love the toning. I'm tempted to buy some of that Haritaki stuff. What kind/type do you use? I've had a quick peek and see a powder sold at around €1/gram in ca. 100g quantities.

Click to expand...

I agree it has never been so easy, just print from the printer, the tonal curve is the same from what you see on the screen, and it skips the negative stage completely.
Almost unfair, but good for the environment, we can now use old printers, skip the plastic sheets and no longer pollute the environment with ink.
And best not depending on specifics in exposure times. You must just expose to the max.

Haritaki ( I have to thank Nicole Small for bringing it to my attention) this is a beast, you have to boil it for some time, and even that is an art. Short simmer or long boil.
It gets more potent over a few days and during use, does not seem to stain the paper much if at all (will depend on paper)
I looked for a kilo but in the end bought 500 gr. from this Ebay seller. (please remove link if not allowed) https://www.ebay.de/itm/364832934803
Besides toning you can also use it for health of course.

thank you Koraks, without reading the article I would not even have started

Brilliant! Thanks so much for the links (and they're fine, really - no worries!)

Jan de Jong said:

thank you Koraks, without reading the article I would not even have started

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This was entirely your idea - and a great one, too!

By the way Jan, if you are going to tone it, you can try and skip the KFerri step all together and go straight to toner. Polyphenol should attach to the ferric of FAC as well, although the tone might be different - perhaps more brownish since it won't have the blue component of ferric ferrocyanide.

:Niranjan.

Love these.

Jan de Jong said:

Haritaki
It gets more potent over a few days and during use

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I guess it is getting slowly oxidised over time. Adding small amounts of Hydrogen Peroxide to the fresh brew might have the same effect. Some artists add Peroxide to Polyphenol toners for Cyanotypes to get more activity from the toner. IIRC Peroxide is added to RA4 developer by some for the same reason.

Jan de Jong said:

I agree it has never been so easy, just print from the printer, the tonal curve is the same from what you see on the screen, and it skips the negative stage completely.
Almost unfair, but good for the environment, we can now use old printers, skip the plastic sheets and no longer pollute the environment with ink.

Click to expand...

It might also be possible to use pigment inks along with your ink to get a hybrid of pigment + Cyanotype print which is not possible with the classic Cyanotype process. This can potentially extend the colour palette of Cyanotype prints.

Jan de Jong said:

And best not depending on specifics in exposure times. You must just expose to the max.

Click to expand...

UV exposure step is not strictly needed in this process if Potassium Ferrocyanide is used as the developer in place of Potassium Ferricyanide. Prussian blue image is formed by the Ferric cations reacting with Ferrocyanide anions. This reaction forms the crux of Herschel's positive cyanotype process.