HP5+, Rodinal, Minimising Grain ?

[Gerald C Koch]

Diluting Rodinal with a sulfite solution was recommended decades ago in Popular Photography by Bill Pierce. The resultant developer IS different from plain Rodinal. The original article recommended DECREASING the development time by 15%. This points out that when you make changes such as this the developer is changed and not just Rodinal any more!

 

[sewarion]

two pieces of advice:
1, like John Wiegerink stated, you might want to rate your HP5 at 250 or 320, and keep your development time constant.
2, to 'minimize' your grain, make sure you have all your fluids at the same temperature - dev, stop, fix and washing water (at the beginning at least - don't 'shock' your film by pouring in 5 degC water after souping it in 20 deg C for devstopfix)

(plus some - including me - reduce temperature when using Rodinal in order to get less grain. I dev (and stop and fix etc) at 18 degC for 12 minutes, 3 agitations per minute, 1+50. doesn't make the grain disappear however, though I regularly talk myself into believing that it helps a little).

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Diluting Rodinal with a sulfite solution was recommended decades ago in Popular Photography by Bill Pierce. The resultant developer IS different from plain Rodinal. The original article recommended DECREASING the development time by 15%. This points out that when you make changes such as this the developer is changed and not just Rodinal any more!

I wholeheartedly agree. It won't be Rodinal anymore, but something else. To minimize grain with HP5+ by using Rodinal isn't a winning game. It's better to either let the grain be what it is, or use other developers (I think you suggested D23 earlier, a fine choice) to truly start working on making the grain have less of an obtrusive appearance.

My own experience with enlarging 35mm negatives, using HP5+ film and a couple of different film developers, normally solvent developers like D76 start to look a little unsharp when making bigger prints like 16x20 inch; the cost of making grain less obtrusive is simply that it looks less well defined at larger magnification. When using developers for higher acutance, like Rodinal, the sharpness of the grain starts to become really apparent in larger print sizes; of course it's also more visible, but some people prefer the sharpness over the smoother look that solvent developers produce.
At this point it is a matter of subjective opinion what looks best. The best compromise I ever saw was replenished Xtol, which somehow manages to yield a very fine grain and high sharpness, while not producing very obtrusive grain. I'm not even sure how Kodak could be so clever in designing this developer, but it does all those things very well, as it did for me for half a decade. It is, in my opinion, the developer that does the least wrong; at least out of the ones I have tried.

 

[John Wiegerink]

I wholeheartedly agree. It won't be Rodinal anymore, but something else. To minimize grain with HP5+ by using Rodinal isn't a winning game. It's better to either let the grain be what it is, or use other developers (I think you suggested D23 earlier, a fine choice) to truly start working on making the grain have less of an obtrusive appearance.

My own experience with enlarging 35mm negatives, using HP5+ film and a couple of different film developers, normally solvent developers like D76 start to look a little unsharp when making bigger prints like 16x20 inch; the cost of making grain less obtrusive is simply that it looks less well defined at larger magnification. When using developers for higher acutance, like Rodinal, the sharpness of the grain starts to become really apparent in larger print sizes; of course it's also more visible, but some people prefer the sharpness over the smoother look that solvent developers produce.
At this point it is a matter of subjective opinion what looks best. The best compromise I ever saw was replenished Xtol, which somehow manages to yield a very fine grain and high sharpness, while not producing very obtrusive grain. I'm not even sure how Kodak could be so clever in designing this developer, but it does all those things very well, as it did for me for half a decade. It is, in my opinion, the developer that does the least wrong; at least out of the ones I have tried.

First, let me say I'm not trying to push anything, system or product I use onto anybody here, but I 100% totally agree with what Thomas has said above. When I look at the two 16X20 prints of the steam locomotive I made I pick the HP5+ one every time over the FP4+ print. Both shot on the same super-heavy tripod, both developed in Xtol Replenished and shot within minutes apart. I know that sounds crazy, but it just plan looks sharper/snappier. Must be the combination of HP5+'s slightly larger grain than FP4+ and the Xtol-R? Yes, larger grain, but I still can't really see it in the 16X20 from HP5+. I guess that is what Thomas means when he talks about HP5+ and Xtol-R being the "best compromise". Rodinal? I love it with Fuji Acros and PanF+, but with HP5+ I'm an Xtol-R fan at the moment. Different strokes for different folks!

 

[Brandon D.]

It's always hard to tell from a scan, but I think the highlights in the lower right look pretty good. Maybe a little more exposure is needed?

Yea, thanks! We actually shot this in my dining room, haha. There are big, open windows on the right. But, there is only a little bit shaded lighting coming from the left. So, one of my mistakes was that I overestimated the evenness of lighting.

Here's one from the 1+50 rolls:

I stumbled onto a combination with HP5+ that surprised me a little or enough to continue to use it. This is with 120 film format so other film sizes might have different outcomes. I had not used HP5+ in a very long time since I like less grain. So the films I used most were DELTA 100 FP4+ and several other 100 speed films. When I ordered my last batch of film I also order 10 rolls of HP5+ with some more FP4+ . I took a shot of a steam locomotive with a 6x9 camera using both FP4+ and HP5+ developed both in Xtol replenished with the HP5+ at 10% less than the recommended time. I made 16x20 prints from both and was pleasantly surprised by the results. The HP5+ prints were fantastic. Grain still wasn't there even at that size and the best part was that the HP5+ print showed what looked like better overall sharpness. Nothing wrong with the FP4+ print, but the lack of edge just didn't get it with that shot. It was just too smooth. Might be better for a portrait, but for a big, black steam locomotive it doesn't cut it. I rate my FP4+ at ISO 80 and guessed at the HP5+ at ISO 250, but I believe ISO 320 might be better. I will be doing my own testing after these results. My next order for film is going to include HP5+ in 4X5 that's for certain. It's a lot nicer being able to shoot a faster film and get results like this. Maybe Xtol replenished and HP5+ was a one time fluke for me, but I sure will be trying to fine out.

Yea, it seems like we have the similar taste in films. At first, I wasn't too thrilled about the shots I've done with Delta 100 and XTOL. But, now that I look back at my old negatives, I really think it's a gorgeous combination. I'd love to try XTOL with HP5+ someday.

Here's Delta 100 + XTOL 1:1 (underdeveloped) from 2008:

This time around, I was actually dead set on using FP4+ as my primary film. But, Fomapan 100 recently won me over. I still love the look of FP4+, and I'll definitely consider using it if Foma 100 ever bites the dust.

The one thing I didn't like about XTOL was the maintenance of having to mix it, bottle it up, and store it. I don't have any room for a standalone darkroom yet because I have a lot of roommates. So, I'm trying to keep my setup to a minimum. The great thing about Rodinal is that I can just pour it out of the bottle, and I'm ready to go!

PS - The other turn off for XTOL was that I was obsessed with Peter Lindbergh back in 2008. And, XTOL couldn't give me that gritty look I was looking for, haha. But, now, I'm sort of over that and I recognize the beauty you can get from XTOL.

 

[John Wiegerink]

Brandon,
That is the nice thing about ordinal. All you have to have is something to mix it in and a syringe or small ml. measure and you're on your way. Plus, it has excellent keeping properties and you use very small quantities. pretty hard to beat for the traveler or small apartment photographic worker. Oh, those shot look mighty nice to me. Especially that Delta 100 - Xtol 1+1 shot. Look how the highlights held it that bright window on the right. Nice work!