How's AdoXTOL coming along, Team Adox?

Scott J. · Apr 26, 2021

m00dawg said:
Hopefully once Freestyle has it I'll feel a bit better as right now every drop of this stuff feels precious.

I contacted Freestyle last week and asked when they anticipated having XT-3 in stock and Oliver replied that it would probably be some time around the end of May to mid-June. He explained that they've placed an order for it but that shipping out of the E.U. is pretty backlogged due to COVID-19, so all they can do is wait. It could come sooner, of course, but that's beyond their control.

Sirius Glass · Apr 26, 2021

m00dawg said:
Thanks Gregg! Yep so far I'm impressed! I'll be souping some more film today more than likely. Not sure what yet exactly as I have quite a backlog. I think I'll pick the RPX 400 I shot yesterday as that was a bit of a test roll to make sure my Yashica LM is working right, but I also have some CHS ii in sheets and several 35mm and 120 rolls over the past few months that are just sitting in a drawer at the moment. Lots of various films there so I'll likely have some comments on those too. Rather excited to see how TMZ looks in XT-3 as I found it often worked very well in Xtol.

XTOL in much safer if it is used to develop film rather than taken in as soup. Please correct your development and wording.

radiant · Apr 26, 2021

Sirius Glass said:
XTOL in much safer if it is used to develop film rather than taken in as soup. Please correct your development and wording.

m00dawg didn't use XTOL

Maybe I have to throw the first replenishing attempt with XT-III because of 5x7" taco shell in Paterson tank. 1.5 liters of anything just to dispose right away is just too much..

Sirius Glass · Apr 26, 2021

vedostuu said:
m00dawg didn't use XTOL

Maybe I have to throw the first replenishing attempt with XT-III because of 5x7" taco shell in Paterson tank. 1.5 liters of anything just to dispose right away is just too much..

Whatever just do not use photochemicals as soup!

m00dawg · Apr 26, 2021

Yes, despite Adox's claims you can drink XT-3, I will not be attempting such!

Curious as to your results, vedostuu! I suppose creating a separate thread just for replenishment might be a good idea so we can all share our results. I too will be attempting this soon for similar reasons.

radiant · Apr 26, 2021

m00dawg said:
Yes, despite Adox's claims you can drink XT-3, I will not be attempting such!

Curious as to your results, vedostuu! I suppose creating a separate thread just for replenishment might be a good idea so we can all share our results. I too will be attempting this soon for similar reasons.

I have to admit that I missed the taste of Xtol in my mouth when I mixed XT-III

If we set up replenishing thread, everybody and I mean each and everyone moves there because .. well, replenishing

m00dawg · Apr 26, 2021

Haha yeah fair point. Tracking people's replenishment rates and setups would be interesting. Sort of a Massive Dev but for XT-3 replenishment. My thought was to start at the upper end of Kodak's replenishment suggestions (80ml I believe?) and compare curves. 80ml is still less than the 150ml I would use as a minimum per any developing run.

Donald Qualls · Apr 26, 2021

Given XT-III is identical to Xtol for time/temp on all tested films, I'd be strongly inclined to start with Kodak's standard 70 ml/roll figure. Or expect Xtol-R users to use the same figure they've been using.

Have to count me out, though, I've just ordered EcoPro and will replenish that going forward; couldn't get XT-III promptly (no stock in USA yet) and I'm running low on Xtol except for the "Trade Concern" bags.

m00dawg · Apr 26, 2021

Quick update, I developed some RPX 400 in XT-3 stock. Decided to just go for it and start a replenishment regimen, though that doesn't mean much after just developing one film. By eye the negatives might be a little dense though I was expecting them to be given how I was metering so I think my dev time (7:45) was close. I should find a baseline here pretty soon though so I can keep track of the stock over time. I've got a bulk roll of Ultrafine Finesse and did film tests with that already so it's a good candidate for that (nice film too!) and that way I don't have to use any of my precious Adox films for lowly film testing until I'm a bit more confident in the stock.

Donald Qualls said:
Given XT-III is identical to Xtol for time/temp on all tested films, I'd be strongly inclined to start with Kodak's standard 70 ml/roll figure. Or expect Xtol-R users to use the same figure they've been using.

Have to count me out, though, I've just ordered EcoPro and will replenish that going forward; couldn't get XT-III promptly (no stock in USA yet) and I'm running low on Xtol except for the "Trade Concern" bags.

I don't blame you! XT-3 availability is a bit of a concern in general here in the US. Pretty sure DHL or USPS lost my other FotoImpex package :/ so that's definitely a concern as far as the supply chain goes, though I still think that's at least somewhat of a transient issue (for how long who knows). I'll feel better once Freestyle has it in stock and will likely buy a few more bags via them for now. I may re-evalute once DHL removes their US shipping tax.

In looking at my notes, though this includes trade concern bags, my recent replenishment rates were around 80ml using 2L worth. I think if the claims Adox makes about it's stability are indeed true, I would also expect similar rates - perhaps even less if there is less falloff. Otherwise I think it's not so much a function of development time but more of solution strength/falloff?

Old Gregg said:
That's a great idea. TBH this would be nice for all self-replenishing developers.

I have some basic step-tablet and H&D curve stuff on my web app I wrote to track all my film stuff. Alas it's not as full featured (read: user friendly) as something like Massive Dev but yeah I think I'll ponder this to see what might be a good way to track this info. I suppose initially something even like a shared Google Spreadsheet might be something where folks can jot down their capacity, replenishment rate, time between replenishment, dev times and processing to reach a contrast index target, etc.

radiant · Apr 27, 2021

One possibility is to share public Google Sheets and store the data there?

For example here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19_1GyJaPZxRnVJtKrwZ_Ww1-pQFNMML7MRjWbSFtgsE/edit?usp=sharing

Feel free to edit!

Donald Qualls · Apr 27, 2021

m00dawg said:
In looking at my notes, though this includes trade concern bags, my recent replenishment rates were around 80ml using 2L worth. I think if the claims Adox makes about it's stability are indeed true, I would also expect similar rates - perhaps even less if there is less falloff. Otherwise I think it's not so much a function of development time but more of solution strength/falloff?

If Adox published information on how much time to add when reusing stock without replenishment, that might be data we could mine to confirm a replenishment rate. I haven't looked at the instruction sheet for XT-III, so I don't know if they gave that information, or stuck with one-shot use. Given their flat insistence that this is a 100% Xtol work-alike, however, I'm back to thinking it'll have the same replenishment characteristics. For Xtol, that's more about how much gets used up developing a roll than about shelf life of the stock solution.

radiant · Apr 27, 2021

vedostuu said:
One possibility is to share public Google Sheets and store the data there?
For example here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19_1GyJaPZxRnVJtKrwZ_Ww1-pQFNMML7MRjWbSFtgsE/edit?usp=sharing

I added @Bormental 's times from here: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/share-your-replenished-xtol-development-times.178358/

m00dawg · Apr 27, 2021

I haven't actually found the instruction sheet for XT-3, just the MSDS. XT-3 is listed on the German version of adox.de (http://www.adox.de/Photo/adox-chemie/adox-filmentwickler/) but it's not a clickable link like the others. I couldn't find it at all on the English site. As an aside, the German site looks nice with the nested drop-downs. That would be nice to see on the English sit too as I have to make my browser full screen and shrink the font size to fit the entire drop down in my window.

Anyways, there's some brief instructions on the front of the bags but that's about all I have found thus far.

radiant · Apr 28, 2021

Great m00dawg and Old-Gregg you have added times to the spreadsheet https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19_1GyJaPZxRnVJtKrwZ_Ww1-pQFNMML7MRjWbSFtgsE/edit?usp=sharing Nice!

K-G · Apr 28, 2021

vedostuu said:
Great m00dawg and Old-Gregg you have added times to the spreadsheet https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19_1GyJaPZxRnVJtKrwZ_Ww1-pQFNMML7MRjWbSFtgsE/edit?usp=sharing Nice!

Thank you for sharing.

Karl-Gustaf

Helge · Apr 28, 2021

Arrived today. Solid packaging.

Two or three workdays.
Although I question the need for a box of packing peanuts.
They will get reused
I promise.

Donald Qualls · Apr 28, 2021

Helge said:
Although I question the need for a box of packing peanuts.
They will get reused
I promise.

Most things I get with loose packing these days come in starch peanuts -- foam made from food starch, technically edible (needs salt), 100% biodegradable, and melts away in water. Hard to believe shippers in EU are still using plastic.

Lachlan Young · Apr 28, 2021

Donald Qualls said:
Most things I get with loose packing these days come in starch peanuts -- foam made from food starch, technically edible (needs salt), 100% biodegradable, and melts away in water. Hard to believe shippers in EU are still using plastic.

I think the Fotoimpex packing peanuts are starch too.

michael_r said:
The MSDS includes pentetic acid pentasodium salt, which is good news on the metal chelating front.

I think the MSDS has MGDA (Trilon M) rather than DTPA listed. At least in the one (dated to 5th march this year) I've seen on Fotoimpex's website. No borates in it either.

lantau · Apr 28, 2021

Theirs are water soluble. Mostly.

Helge · Apr 28, 2021

michael_r said:
The MSDS includes pentetic acid pentasodium salt, which is good news on the metal chelating front.

Does it come with a free choice of topping?

Helge · Apr 28, 2021

lantau said:
Theirs are water soluble. Mostly.

No it’s not. Just checked.

Lachlan Young · Apr 28, 2021

michael_r said:
Hmmm... I see what you mean. However in the labelling section (2.2) for part A both the pentetic acid salt and Trilon M are indicated. I’m not an expert on Trilon M but it seems to have relatively low complexing log k with respect to Iron and Copper.

It's a little bit perplexing because while the amount of DTPA/ Trilon C used per litre stock is tiny (1g/l I recall), the amount of Dimezone-S is even lower, yet it's disclosed in both 2.2 and 3. Trilon M/ MGDA is regarded as a much more environmentally safe/ biodegradable sequestrant, but I wonder if it's also playing a role in place of the metaborate.

Lachlan Young · Apr 28, 2021

michael_r said:
Possibly. Fotoimpex indicated in one of these threads they came up with a proprietary alkali/buffer to replace the borate in XTOL.

I'm hoping DTPA is in fact present. While MGDA is certainly a more environmentally friendly compound, the Fenton reaction is specific to ascorbate developers.

I suspect that there may be just enough DTPA added to ensure that the Fenton reaction doesn't happen - with the MGDA possibly taking on more of the metaborate role.

Sal Santamaura · Apr 28, 2021

Helge said:
...I question the need for a box of packing peanuts...

When ordering from FOTOIMPEX, at checkout I'm offered a choice of "Lightweight and dust free FloPack filling material," which is apparently what you received, or "Recycled cardboard cushion as an ecological alternative." Were you not offered the same choice for shipping to Denmark?

radiant · Apr 29, 2021

Sal Santamaura said:
When ordering from FOTOIMPEX, at checkout I'm offered a choice of "Lightweight and dust free FloPack filling material," which is apparently what you received, or "Recycled cardboard cushion as an ecological alternative." Were you not offered the same choice for shipping to Denmark?

Those choices have always been only choices to Finland at least. I hate both filling materials. I wish they would switch to those biogradeable plastic bags (that are filled when packing).. So easy to dispose.

How's AdoXTOL coming along, Team Adox?

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