How Would You Compare Velvia 50 to Ektachrome 100 ?

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Film-Niko

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First, "real sensitivity" is determined by the ISO standard and not what you think looks best. You are free to think E100 shot at EI 80 looks best, but that has nothing to do with real sensitivity.

I have several cameras and external light meters which give me perfect results in ISO standards with films from all manufacturers.
E.g. I get perfect results at EI 100 with former E100G, E100VS, Elitechrome 100.
And also with Provia 100F, Astia 100F, Sensia III, and Provia 400X at EI 400.

If my meters or my metering technique would be wrong as you claim, it would be impossible to get all the above mentioned results.
Period.
 

Film-Niko

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Film-Niko, What is relevant for me and should be for the great majority of users here is to trust KODAK.

Why should I generally trust a company which has failed quite often? There are no perfect companies, everyone make mistakes or not perfect solutions, including Kodak.
That KODAK is always right and perfect is a naive way of thinking.
I well remember e.g. the "Panther" slide films of Kodak in the 90ies. They were crap and damaged Kodak's reputation significantly. One of the several reasons why Kodak's slide films sales went south in the 90ies, and why Fufilm became market leader in that segment.
 

miha

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Why would I trust you and not KODAK when I get good results? We have different tastes

Ohhh Panther, the X version was my favorite slide of the time!
 
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miha

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One of the several reasons why Kodak's slide films sales went south in the 90ies
, and why Fufilm became market leader in that segment.

The reason was Velvia.
 

faberryman

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I have several cameras and external light meters which give me perfect results in ISO standards with films from all manufacturers.
E.g. I get perfect results at EI 100 with former E100G, E100VS, Elitechrome 100.
And also with Provia 100F, Astia 100F, Sensia III, and Provia 400X at EI 400.

If my meters or my metering technique would be wrong as you claim, it would be impossible to get all the above mentioned results.
Period.

Wow. You go back a long way. With the exception of Provia 100F, all of those slide films were discontinued 2010-13. I assume you are using the same cameras and meters now that you were using a decade ago to run your current tests.

Query: do your cameras and lenses allow you to set shutter speed and aperture in 1/3 stop or finer increments. If not, do you round up or down to the nearest 1/2 stop when setting exposure?
 
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Film-Niko

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The reason was Velvia.

Velvia was only one of the reasons. The impact by the Panther desaster was quite significant. And the success of Provia, Sensia and Astia played an important role, too.
 

Film-Niko

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Wow. You go back a long way. With the exception of Provia 100F, all of those slide films were discontinued 2010-13. I assume you are using the same cameras and meters now that you were using a decade ago to run your current tests.

I check my equipment regularly.
And I have used these films (at that time and currently, using frozen stock of the discontinued films) with e.g. the F5, F100, and double checked with Canon EOS 1V, EOS 3 and Minolta Dynax 7 from friends.

Query: do your cameras and lenses allow you to set shutter speed and aperture in 1/3 stop or finer increments.
Yes, 1/3 stops increments both for shutter speeds and lenses.
 

faberryman

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I check my equipment regularly.
And I have used these films (at that time and currently, using frozen stock of the discontinued films) with e.g. the F5, F100, and double checked with Canon EOS 1V, EOS 3 and Minolta Dynax 7 from friends.

Yes, 1/3 stops increments both for shutter speeds and lenses.

I had forgotten that the later high-end Nikon film cameras and lenses you have offer those capabilities. Just reading the Nikon F100 instruction manual made my eyes glaze over. I am not a big fan of LCD readouts, electronic buttons, command dials, and menus and sub-menus in film cameras. I also like aperture rings on my lenses.
 
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Sirius Glass

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First, "real sensitivity" is determined by the ISO standard and not what you think looks best. You are free to think E100 shot at EI 80 looks best, but that has nothing to do with real sensitivity.

Second, what are your criteria for who qualifies as an "experienced user", and how many "experienced users" do you think constitutes a "significant number" of "experienced users"? How did you determine whatever you think is a significant number of whatever you think are experienced users think E100 looks best when shot at EI 80? Did you actually vet the experience of the "experienced users" on social media? Have you ever seen any of these "experienced users'" E100 slides shot at EI 80?

It seems to me you are relying on the logical fallacies of appeal to authority (argumentum ab auctoritate) and the bandwagon fallacy (argumentum ad populum) to support your argument. Use of logic fallacies render your argument invalid, so I would stick with just saying you think E100 look best when shot at EI 80. You really don't need to say more. Adding arguments based on specious reasoning erodes your credibility.

A bit of history: way back when before there was the internet and social media, slide shooters would frequently underexpose slide film by 1/3 stop to get better saturation and avoid blowing out highlights. It was a tip they read in Popular Photography magazine or wherever. They never said that the "real sensitivity" of Ektachome 64 was 50; they just said E64 looked better underexposed by 1/3 stop. Just an observation of the then and now.

Again we violently agree. 😁
 

Sirius Glass

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Why would I trust you and not KODAK when I get good results? We have different tastes

Ohhh Panther, the X version was my favorite slide of the time!

Because Kodak has done more scientific tests for decades than you would do by the seat of your pants is you lived a 1,000 years.
 

miha

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Because Kodak has done more scientific tests for decades than you would do by the seat of your pants is you lived a 1,000 years.

Replying to me? I trust KODAK.
 

DREW WILEY

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A lot of things have changed. Once real slide shows were abundant; now you can't even find a lab which will mount slides. Once many landscape photographers shot 4x5 for sake of publishable stock photographs; now most people are content with viewing color images over the web, with little concern for accuracy. Others like me shot various 4X5 and 8X10 chrome films for sake of Cibachrome prints. At that kind of effort in the wilderness, and expenditure in dollars, one doesn't gamble by guessing or listening to rumors. And you rarely have the luxury to bracket anything; the first exposure has to count.

Underexposing E6 products a little bit might have make them look better projected or over a bright light box, but also makes them harder to reproduce in print or publication fashion, especially so with Velvia, which is very high contrast to begin with. People need to state their objectives before blurting out this and that.

And those of us who of necessity had to control the variables ourselves very tightly, and had the instrumentation to do so, can appreciate the tremendous level of manufacturing quality control offered by both Fuji and Kodak for decades. They know what they are doing. If Kodak has had financial troubles, that had more to do with bean counters and egotistical management types who did not rise up through the ranks of actual manufacturing skills, but were dropped into the top from unrelated backgrounds. That kind of thing was a plague in the 90's and early 2000's, and crippled many previously strong manufacturing corporations, not just Kodak.

But since this is all being debated on what is supposedly the Color Darkoom section, just how many of you are actually doing that, and printing your chromes in the darkroom, or in the past have done so, one way or another? It can make a huge difference with respect to how such opinions are formed in the first place.
 
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faberryman

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A lot of things have changed. Once real slide shows were abundant; now you can't even find a lab which will mount slides.

Yes, I used to project slides. Then I stopped projecting slides and started printing slides. That was in the 1980s.

Once many landscape photographers shot 4x5 for sake of publishable stock photographs;

I never met anyone who shot 4x5 landscapes for stock. I am sure some did. Who they are is likely unknown.

...now most people are content with viewing color images over the web, with little concern for accuracy.

...before most people were content with viewing color images in photo albums, with little concern for color accuracy. The more things change, the more they remain the same.

Others like me shot various 4X5 and 8X10 chrome films for sake of Cibachrome prints.

I made Cibachome prints from slides too. I ultimately decided that Cibachrome prints looked too plasticky and went back to black and white on fiber based papers, and now alternative processes.

At that kind of effort in the wilderness, and expenditure in dollars, one doesn't gamble by guessing or listening to rumors.

To no one's surprise, shooting large format is expensive so it helps to know what you are doing. Of course, everyone was a beginner at one time.

And you rarely have the luxury to bracket anything; the first exposure has to count.

I don't know why you can't bracket landscapes. The trees and rocks aren't going anywhere. You can flip the film holder pretty quickly. Ansel Adams routinely made two exposures. Of course, if you are confident with your metering skills, you don't need to bracket.

Underexposing E6 products a little bit might have make them look better projected or over a bright light box, but also makes them harder to reproduce in print or publication fashion, especially so with Velvia, which is very high contrast to begin with. People need to state their objectives before blurting out this and that.

Since slide shows were, as you say, abundant, it made sense to underexpose a bit. The other upside was that it protected against blown highlights. Blown highlights don't look very good in Cibachrome prints.

And those of us who of necessity had to control the variables ourselves very tightly, and had the instrumentation to do so, can appreciate the tremendous level of manufacturing quality control offered by both Fuji and Kodak for decades. They know what they are doing.

To no one's surprise, Kodak and Fuji make good films. And I am not even sure what "of necessity had to control the variables ourselves very tightly, and had the instrumentation to do so" means in the context of developing color prints in tubes. Are you talking about using a timer, a thermometer, and a roller base?

If Kodak has had financial troubles, that had more to do with bean counters and egotistical management types who did not rise up through the ranks of actual manufacturing skills, but were dropped into the top from unrelated backgrounds. That kind of thing was a plague in the 90's and early 2000's, and crippled many previously strong manufacturing corporations, not just Kodak.

Businesses are run by people. People make mistakes. Sometimes disastrous ones. Even people who were working in the manufacturing area and promoted to executive management make mistakes. Running a coating machine well doesn't assure success in orchestrating a financial restructuring.

But since this is all being debated on what is supposedly the Color Darkroom section, just how many of you are actually doing that, and printing your chromes in the darkroom, or in the past have done so, one way or another? It can make a huge difference with respect to how such opinions are formed in the first place.

As I mentioned above, I haven't shot and printed slides in quite a while. Doesn't mean I don't know anything about it. My memory is largely intact. The learning curve is a curve, not a straight line, so after a while, doing the same thing over and over again doesn't yield any new insight or improvement. You might even get stuck in a rut. So don't confuse how long someone has been doing something with how well they are doing it.

Some photographers go to extremes to make things as complicated as possible, or at least to make what they do sound as complicated as possible. They conflate complexity with quality. For anyone other than the photographer, the process is irrelevant. It is the results that count. As Dan Burkholder once said, you don't get extra credit for it being hard. And work ethic without talent will only take you so far.
 
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Sirius Glass

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Yes, I used to project slides. Then I stopped projecting and started printing. That was in the 1980s.

The same for me. With the advent of having child, one needs to make many prints for the extended family. Thus the need for color negative film.
 

bluechromis

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I am surprised Velvia 50 is really an option. I checked at B&H and it is $33.99/roll and is out of stock. Ektachrome is $21.99 and is in stock. Isn't Fujifilm's modus operandi to raise prices and limit supply, and then discontinue the film because of a lack of demand?

How do we explain Fuji's decision to bring back Acros 100?
 

Anon Ymous

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How do we explain Fuji's decision to bring back Acros 100?

Before the discontinuation announcement, Acros was a fairly cheap film. After the announcement, prices skyrocketed. Whatever stock was left sold for far more than what it normally did. So, perhaps Fuji had second thoughts and decided to relaunch it at a much higher price point.
 
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My experience with E100:

I exposed a test film where i shot each subject with 80 and 100ISO. In most cases, the 80ISO version looked better. Processing was not the culprit as i went to great lengths to achieve a very precise temperature control.
Provia 100F as well as Velvia 100 appear to be spot on at 100ISO with my standard development procedure (also used with E100) while Velvia 50 has the well known behavior of being more of 32/40ISO in E6 which has also been confirmed multiple times.
So i tend to confirm the statement of E100 being more like 80ISO. 1/3rd of a stop is not a "hit or miss" discrepancy but more a matter of taste, as mechanical shutters easily have errors of this magnitude by themselves.
Further, it depends if the slides are used for projection or for scanning. A slightly (or even not sooo slightly) underexposed slide can look absolutely fantastic in projection while giving even a drum scanner a hard time (especially Velvia)

E100 looks cooler and less contrasty than Provia 100 (let alone the Velvias). I might even say a bit "lifeless" in comparison. At least in dull light where Velvia excels.
Alex Burke apparently made the same observation and uses a Tiffen 812 warming filter which produced results that look amazing. In a few days i will get my own 812 filter, because i want to come to terms with this film.
Further, he also uses it at around 80ISO (or even a bit slower, his blog contains an article about it)

Velvia 50 in comparison to E100 is very contrasty and works beautifully under diffuse light conditions and it really cranks up the colors.

Apparently E100 has more "headroom" in the highlights compared to Velvia/Provia, which would be nice. I haven't tested this aspect of the film by myself yet but Alex did it (and i am going to do it too).


Interesting but not important: It changes the color of the 1st developer solution red like some berry juice :smile:
 

faberryman

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Before the discontinuation announcement, Acros was a fairly cheap film. After the announcement, prices skyrocketed. Whatever stock was left sold for far more than what it normally did. So, perhaps Fuji had second thoughts and decided to relaunch it at a much higher price point.

I agree. Perhaps Fuji had already shut down the coating machine or didn't want to get back into coating black and white film, so they farmed out production to Ilford (Harman). I haven't read much about the new Acros II. Reports are that the sensitivity of the film is not the same as the original. I don't know whether Acros II has the same legendary reciprocity characteristics as the original.
 
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DREW WILEY

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If the scene contrast is moderate, a third of a stop error in exposure one way or the other isn't exactly a felony. But just providing some anecdotal opinion or second hard anecdotal opinion is just that - mere rumor. Therefore you have "confirmed" exactly zero so far, Photomultiplier. You're just passing along unfounded hearsay with zero analytical testing behind it.

And the only reason Velvia allegedly works better at 40 is, again, just due to some old rumor mill. Yes, if you want more wiggle room in the highlights you have to underexpose it somewhat; but if you want more wiggle room in the shadows, you need to overexpose it instead - just the opposite. And what any of that does to the colors in between all depends. One needs to think strategically with reference to each instance. But it's wisest to keep the official box speed in mind when doing so, because that's the engineered center-point for these films.

The Tiffen 812 filter does what they claim it will do. It's roughly equivalent to an 81B plus a 2B skylight filter - basically a sledgehammer approach to removing deep blue shadows from the subject, but which will warm up everything else up somewhat too. It's an almost flesh colored filter. It's designed to enhance warm colors, but will do so at the expense of cool colors. In other words, it's more of a selective enhancement filter rather than a color correction one. It will NOT teach you how to more correctly use E100, but will comprise an optional tool for dealing with certain situations where you deliberately want to skew the color balance of any chrome film in an artificially warmed manner. It other words, it won't make E100 look like Provia or Velvia, but make any of them look distinctly warmer. Just remember to add a little more exposure when using an 812, perhaps half a stop. It's denser than ordinary skylight filters and so forth.
 
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I shoot at box speed for all my films because between errors with my exposure calculations and shutter errors, there's no sure way to know anything of what I might get. Sometimes I'll add a little for negative film and subtract a little for chromes. When I shoot MF I'll bracket 1/2 stop. I take more chances with 4x5 and just shoot one shot.
 

Sirius Glass

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I shoot at box speed for all my films because between errors with my exposure calculations and shutter errors, there's no sure way to know anything of what I might get. Sometimes I'll add a little for negative film and subtract a little for chromes. When I shoot MF I'll bracket 1/2 stop. I take more chances with 4x5 and just shoot one shot.

Given the cost of slide film, wouldn't you be better off getting the cameras CLA'd and the light meters calibrated?
 
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Given the cost of slide film, wouldn't you be better off getting the cameras CLA'd and the light meters calibrated?

I've checked my 4x5 and MF lenses. They all seem to be under 1/3 of a stop off an any one setting, which is what the LF lens mfrs warranty. Interestingly, my Nikon N6006 electronic shutter 35mm is right on the money at all settings. I was really quite surprised when I checked it.

But you offer a good solution. I wonder if LF lens' shutters can actually be adjusted? Likewise Mamiya RB67 lenses?
 
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