How to print this in darkroom (without dodging and burning)

pentaxuser

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As far as I can see this is a positive of a negative scan but assuming that this is an accurate representatíon of the actual negative, it looks as if your meter may not have fully accounted for the dark skin and clothing against a much lighter sky so the exposure the meter gave you was not enough for the person. So the person was underexposed and the sky over exposed.

If you intend to darkroom print then there may be enough detaíl in the face to "dodge it" and enough detail in the sky to burn it but it is difficult to say. Maybe it was an overcast, dull day so there is no detail in the sky

If you make hybrid print or simply want to post process the negative and print to make it better then I will rely on others who scan who can tell you what to do as I am solely a darkroom printer and know nothing of scanning

pentaxuser
 
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OP

darkosaric

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Hi Pentaxuser,

No hybrid, I want standard silver gelatin print, evetualy Lith print. I scan only to see which photo I decide to put in the chemicals, as contact printing never resonated with me.

I overexposed the negative, but even then - dark skin is a problem to print. Dodging very small part of the print (head only) is, for me at least, pretty difficult to nail. Split grade I never used, maybe this is the way?

Here is one example where I don't know how to dodge and burn effectively - those hands, legs and face are so tiny part of the negative:




Thanks
Darko
 
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logan2z

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It might be possible to pre-flash the paper and then select an exposure/contrast grade that gives you a good tone for the person's skin. The pre-flash might allow for some density in the sky without burning in. Just a thought...

But I'd start with a straight print first to see which areas are giving you issues, then problem solve from there.
 

MattKing

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You may wish to investigate unsharp masking.
But no matter what you try, you've created a challenge for yourself!
 

Paul Howell

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Holding the negative to a light source is there detail in the skin tones, the girl with the load on her head is in shadows and the scene is backlit. may not have any details. I would try to split print grade 1 not 0 and maybe grade 4 rather than 5. But in the end you might have to dodge out the faces.
 

pentaxuser

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If the person's features lack detail i.e. the face is underexposed then if you are close enough to the person which I think you might be then a centre weighted meter or better still a spot meter will help a lot to improve the ability of the negative to produce more detail ín the face

In the two pictures it looks as if there is enough detail ín other parts so rating the film at a lower speed than its box speed may not be of that much help

I agree that pre-flashing may be worthwhile or split grading but as a first step have you tried making a small print of a section that contains both shadow and highlight detail at a range of grades to see what best suits the person and what this does to the highlights

Dodging and burning is often difficult to do but sometimes it has to be done

A man called Tim Rudman wrote a book called The Photographer's Master Printing Course which may be only written in English but given your skill in writing and understanding English will be no problem to understand. I'd try to get a secondhand copy of his book English. It is very good

Go to AbeBooks.co.uk and search for Tim Rudman. There are copies of the book starting at about £10

He says in the book that to be really good at dodging and burning you have to be prepared to waste quite a lot of darkroom paper and he is right that you do need to practice it

Best of luck


pentaxuser
 

Daniela

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Split grade printing! You'll be able to control highlights and shadows separately. For sure, you'll get more interesting skies and you'll be able to get the most of the darker areas (depending on what registered on film)
 

Pieter12

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You're still going to have to doge and burn. No way around that. I also doubt flashing will help--that is used to bring out details in the highlights, your problem is opening up the midtowns in the faces and figures. The negs look soft to me. I wouldn't bother unless they have some significance to you, or as a learning session.
 

logan2z

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Pieter12 said:
I also doubt flashing will help--that is used to bring out details in the highlights
Click to expand...

That's right. I only suggested it in case adjusting the exposure for the skin tones (assuming there's enough detail there in the first place) resulted in too little density in the sky. If not, then flashing wouldn't be necessary.

The challenge was to suggest a way to print this without dodging and burning.
 

Alex Benjamin

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darkosaric said:
Split grade I never used, maybe this is the way?
Click to expand...

It's certainly what I would try. But in this case, starting with grade 5, not grade 0. Grade 5 controls the shadows, has very little impact on the highlights. The low values—the man's face—is where your problem is, so that's what you want to determine first. Make tests strips only of him in grade 5 until you find your sweet spot, in which you have the details you want (or that you can possibly have, depending on what's on the negative) and the tone you want.

Don't go too far, as dry-down could have a major impact here, depending on your paper.

After that, you can do your test strips at grade 0 (or 00) for the rest, which is mostly in the higher register. There will come a point in which grade 0 will have some impact on your shadows, so you have to watch that. I'd look for a point in which the paler parts of his garment are closer to white than to grey, but they key will always be his face. Too much grade 0 and it will turn into mud.

If you focus only on your subject, grade 5 first, then grade 0, you should get there. My feeling is that after that you probably will have a bit of burning to do with the background, since the amount of grade 0 you put in will probably be short. One way to avoid too much of that is to crop.

 

rcphoto

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If you can't handle dodging and burning, I don't know that I would muddle in split grade.
 

Alex Benjamin

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rcphoto said:
If you can't handle dodging and burning, I don't know that I would muddle in split grade.
Click to expand...

If he doesn't like doing dodge and burn but is willing to try split grade, what's the harm. He'll learn something new and decide for himself whether it's a technique that works for him or not, and helps him reach his desired esthetic goal.
 

rcphoto

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Alex Benjamin said:
If he doesn't like doing dodge and burn but is willing to try split grade, what's the harm. He'll learn something new and decide for himself whether it's a technique that works for him or not, and helps him reach his desired esthetic goal.
Click to expand...

I think most would advise to learn basic techniques.
 

Pieter12

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Alex Benjamin said:
If he doesn't like doing dodge and burn but is willing to try split grade, what's the harm. He'll learn something new and decide for himself whether it's a technique that works for him or not, and helps him reach his desired esthetic goal.
Click to expand...

I doubt split-grade printing will produces results that are any more than a tad better than single-grade printing could with the example images. They cry out for at least some dodging, no matter the basic printing technique. Split-grade dodging and burning seem in order.
 

Alex Benjamin

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I agree. And perhaps after trying simple split-grade OP will come to the conclusion either that the negative is unworkable in the manner in which he usually approaches his printing, or that he may want to revise his position regarding dodging and burning. That's for him to decide.


rcphoto said:
I think most would advise to learn basic techniques.
Click to expand...

OP didn't say why he doesn't want to dodge and burn. Maybe he doesn't like it, maybe he feels he's not good at it, maybe he just doesn't have the time.

OP has been a member of APUG/Photrio since 2008, and posts lots of photos of his travels on his website. If he feels that the mastery of photography and printing he has (and the time he has to put on them) allows him to post photos he likes, best advice is to help him find a way to keep doing things as close as possible to the way he has been doing them for all these years.
 

RalphLambrecht

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no way!
 

Animalcito

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There was a German photography magazine called something like 'Foto Hobby Labor'. In one issue they had an article about using the photographic paper itself as a sort of instant contrast reducing mask.
In as nutshell it worked that way:
1) setup the enlarger and negative etc. like for a normal print.
2) soak the paper in the developer before exposing it under the enlarger
3) expose the paper for a fraction of the overall time needed
4) wait in the red light and you will see some development will happen in the dark parts of the print
5) second exposure with the remaining time
6) take the paper from the enlarger and develop normally
You have to test the two exposure times (sum and ratio) manually, if the 1st exposure is too long you may get some strange effects - and it is a bit of a mess
 

revdoc

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The dark parts of the print are too dark. You want to make them lighter. There are two things you can do: less exposure and/or less contrast.

Well, okay, you could also try local bleaching on the print. If you use a rehal bleach, you can redevelop and try again if you go too far. Fix when you think it's right.
 

MattKing

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In order to apply any of the split grade techniques toward solving this challenge, you will have to print the different parts of the image separately. You really can't do that, unless you employ some dodging, and some burning. Otherwise, every part of the image will get similar exposure, and the challenge won't be solved.
If you don't want to dodge and burn, make a decision to give up on most of the detail in the background. Print for the foreground subjects, and let the backgrounds fall where they may.
 
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