How to be a color developer containing (Reversal) Bath

[mohmad khatab]

Several decades ago color couplers were some oily substances, and water based color developers had difficulties getting to these couplers. The Benzyl Alcohol contained in color developers back then enabled contact between color developer and color couplers.

This problem was solved several decades ago, therefore E-6 films do not require Benzyl alcohol. Don't waste further thoughts or money on this compound.

The basic idea, is that I wanted to merge (reversal) Bath with a color developer, I don't want to go to the manual re-exposure step or via a (reversal) Bath solution because he mostly suffers from sudden death ,,,
There is a colleague ,, I suggest that I use the process color developer (E4), he is a developer that allows me to reach this goal ,,,
- But I found that this developer needs (Benzyl Alcohol) which is not available to me, and when I told this colleague that this item is not available, he said that we can dispense with this element and maybe the color will develop acceptable without this element.
- I really don't know ...

 

[Donald Qualls]

Since you're using this developer only on E-6 films, there's no need for the Benzyl Alcohol, which was necessary only with the dye couplers in E-3 and E-4 films. I'd be much more concerned about wrong developing agent or wrong pH for modern film if you start with an E-4 color developer.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

OP will benefit if somebody suggests an easily available sequestering agent that is known to work well with Tin chloride. Would Sodium hexametaphosphate or Citric acid do the job?

 

[mohmad khatab]

Since you're using this developer only on E-6 films, there's no need for the Benzyl Alcohol, which was necessary only with the dye couplers in E-3 and E-4 films. I'd be much more concerned about wrong developing agent or wrong pH for modern film if you start with an E-4 color developer.

Dear colleague, Mr. Donald
In fact, I find your intervention great value and your concerns about the pH number are really legitimate and very legitimate.
- But I remember that I saw an advertisement someday months ago (less than a year) and this advert is for a (semi-professional) laboratory that provides film development services (as I remember in Indonesia or one of its neighboring countries) ,,, and this lab says ,,, It provides (E4) film development service using process (E4), and it also provides other regular development services.
I did not pay any attention to that point, and I erased this post because I live in Egypt and I will not benefit from this point.
- Conclusion :
- I suspect that some laboratories are still dependent on the process (E4) in order to develop transparency films that are primarily designed according to the process (E6), so I suspect that the success rate of that process may be acceptable, and experience and testing is what Prove or deny that ,, let's try and see.

 

[mohmad khatab]

OP will benefit if somebody suggests an easily available sequestering agent that is known to work well with Tin chloride. Would Sodium hexametaphosphate or Citric acid do the job?

My brother ,,, the elements of isolation that they propose always make people frustrated and desperate and perhaps one day they will cause us to commit suicide ,,
I hate PDTA hate ATMP, and I hope the head of the man who invented (DTPA) explodes, they are all evil and very expensive items, they are almost expensive and practically almost the same price as gold (not joking)
Yes, I am thinking of using the poor Calgon, and perhaps I am considering adding 2 grams (Na2) or (Na4) ..



NB:
What do you mean by the symbol (OP)
I did not understand this symbol

 

[Donald Qualls]

- I suspect that some laboratories are still dependent on the process (E4) in order to develop transparency films that are primarily designed according to the process (E6), so I suspect that the success rate of that process may be acceptable, and experience and testing is what Prove or deny that ,, let's try and see.

Labs that offer E-4 are much more likely to be serving a market for processing old film. It's fairly common, in countries that have had family photography for generations, to find film in an old camera, or unprocessed rolls in a box or drawer -- and if the film is older than the current process, you may be dependent on a lab offering an obsolete process if you want to attempt (in this case) a color slide as opposed to a black and white negative. In the United States, there is (or was, ten or fifteen years ago) a small sub-hobby of looking specifically for old cameras in thrift shops, yard sales, and such -- in search of film that might have been left in them for decades. I have personally processed black and white films that were fifty years old -- but black and white process hasn't really changed since before 1900, where there have been at least four color negative, and at least three color slide processes since the Second World War, and the new films don't work in the old process (and fairly often, the old films don't work in the new -- like C-22 Kodacolor in C-41).

The big difference between E-4 and C-22, as obsolete processes go, is that E-4 films were much less "birthdays and holidays" films, and much more "travel and professional" films, thus more likely to contain images where the color is important enough to spend the cost of an obsolete process.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

What do you mean by the symbol (OP)
I did not understand this symbol

OP = original post/poster.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

@mohmad khatab: What reversal bath are you currently using? Is it Tin chloride? Tin chloride is unstable in solution as it undergoes hydrolysis. Apparently you can prevent this by putting small pieces of Tin into the solution. See this:

Whether or not metallic tin prevents the hydrolysis of Tin chloride, it seems to be a well-known remedy for oxidation.

"Tin(II) chloride is a strong reducing agent and is easily oxidized by atmospheric oxygen. Metallic tin is often added to solutions of SnCl2 to prevent this oxidation."

 

[mohmad khatab]

Labs that offer E-4 are much more likely to be serving a market for processing old film. It's fairly common, in countries that have had family photography for generations, to find film in an old camera, or unprocessed rolls in a box or drawer -- and if the film is older than the current process, you may be dependent on a lab offering an obsolete process if you want to attempt (in this case) a color slide as opposed to a black and white negative. In the United States, there is (or was, ten or fifteen years ago) a small sub-hobby of looking specifically for old cameras in thrift shops, yard sales, and such -- in search of film that might have been left in them for decades. I have personally processed black and white films that were fifty years old -- but black and white process hasn't really changed since before 1900, where there have been at least four color negative, and at least three color slide processes since the Second World War, and the new films don't work in the old process (and fairly often, the old films don't work in the new -- like C-22 Kodacolor in C-41).

The big difference between E-4 and C-22, as obsolete processes go, is that E-4 films were much less "birthdays and holidays" films, and much more "travel and professional" films, thus more likely to contain images where the color is important enough to spend the cost of an obsolete process.

- I think I have to search for an outdated process.
- I am compelled to do so now.
This is a difficult and complicated stage in my life. I need to use the shortest way to reach the goal.
Yes, expected quality will not be perfect, but it is a very important step on the road.
I cannot tell you the conditions in my country. You will not expect what I am saying. You must come and live for a period of time to see the situation in the eyes of the local citizens.
Greetings to you

 

[mohmad khatab]

Whether or not metallic tin prevents the hydrolysis of Tin chloride, it seems to be a well-known remedy for oxidation.

"Tin(II) chloride is a strong reducing agent and is easily oxidized by atmospheric oxygen. Metallic tin is often added to solutions of SnCl2 to prevent this oxidation."

My dear brother, Raghu,
God bless you ,,
Thank you very much ,,
This is really very interesting scientific research and very useful (I think)
I hope to see it (esteemed) M. / Austrian Rudi or any of the chemists here,
But ,, what is meant by a piece of tin ,, can we fold a tin sheet of that in the kitchen?

 

[Donald Qualls]

what is meant by a piece of tin ,, can we fold a tin sheet of that in the kitchen?

Actual metallic tin.

The "tin foil" you have in the kitchen is actually aluminum (it may have been made of tin 150 years ago, but it's been aluminum since before I was born). When I was a kid, toothpaste came in tubes made of actual tin. Now they're plastic. Oil paints (like artists use) once came in tin tubes, but I'm pretty sure they're plastic as well. European solder is (or was, ten or so years ago) often 100% tin (because lead is banned from even electronic solder in Europe), though if you use solder for this, you need to get the kind that doesn't have a rosin core.

 

[mohmad khatab]

Actual metallic tin.

The "tin foil" you have in the kitchen is actually aluminum (it may have been made of tin 150 years ago, but it's been aluminum since before I was born). When I was a kid, toothpaste came in tubes made of actual tin. Now they're plastic. Oil paints (like artists use) once came in tin tubes, but I'm pretty sure they're plastic as well. European solder is (or was, ten or so years ago) often 100% tin (because lead is banned from even electronic solder in Europe), though if you use solder for this, you need to get the kind that doesn't have a rosin core.

Yes, you're right ,
I know where I can get pure tin ,,
- From Toshiba where my uncle works, a home appliance engineer, LED screens and so on, and he has a tin roller for pure welding and I come from Toshiba's mother from Japan, I can get a little, I once heard that he is very pure And very expensive.
- But I will take possession of him in any way, sometimes I can become a respectable thief, sometimes, there is no problem with that.

But the important question is: How many grams should I steal?

 

[Donald Qualls]

Pure tin solder isn't that expensive, at least in the USA; just 3-4 times the cost of regular tin-lead solder. Lead is cheap because common, tin less so because most of the easy ores were mined out back in the Bronze Age.

How much tin do you need? I'm not sure, I've never done this stannous chloride fogging bath or reversing developer. If in fact leaving tin in the solution to fight hydrolysis actually works, it should need just a fraction of a gram in a bottle of solution -- enough to have some of the solid metal present. Like keeping the crystals in the bottom of original Rodinal if you transfer the bottle, you don't need all of them, but you must have some. Aging will use up the metal, but I wouldn't think it would do so quickly.

 

[koraks]

Solder is virtually never pure tin. It used to be mostly tin and lead, these days it's tin + copper or tin + silver and perhaps some additional metals in small amounts.

 

[Donald Qualls]

American plumbing solder has been pure tin for several (10? 15?) years. Keeps lead out of drinking water. European electronic solder changed, roughly around 2005, from the same 60/40 lead-tin alloy commonly used in the USA to a higher melting alloy that was more prone to defective joints (says the man who was repairing power tools around the time those started to show up for warranty). I understood from my reading/research around that time that electronics manufacturers had hastily switched to 100% tin to meet EU regulations (that were more or less sprung on them -- EU had announced they'd be banning all lead in consumer products, but hadn't given a hard schedule and might have expanded the ban to professional equipment at the last minute), though given the drop-off in problems with Bosch and Metabo tools after about 2012, I always figured they either reformulated the solder (adding bismuth, antimony, or indium?) to melt closer to the 60/40 liquidus, or came up with an improvement in the rest of the process (or did a better job of testing/inspecting) to reduce the number of defective joints that made it into finished product. Factory solder in tools sold in EU is still harder to melt (to repair or reflow a joint, for instance) than the 60/40 we use on our repair benches, but I have no way to analyze it and say for certain what's in it.

American plumbing solder, on the other hand, is proudly marked as 100% tin. Since plumbing is usually soldered with a torch, there isn't as much issue with needing more heat and higher temperature as there would be in electrical/electronic work.

 

[mohmad khatab]

Thank you both. Yes.
But in general we are being tested, there is a very reasonable chance of success. why not

 

[mohmad khatab]

The only formula I can find is CD of E-4 process, the predecessor of E-6, that includes the reversal agent and CD-3.

https://125px.com/docs/techpubs/kodak/cis111-E4_Forumulas.pdf (page 2)

You can and you should substitute Tertiary butylamine borane (highly toxic) with stannous chloride.

Finally I found it
I have been searching long for this post.
- Brother ,,
please,,
I have read that document several times, and I have noticed that it is a recent document, the date of its release is in the year 2000 and the process (E6) was already available and published, also when the conversation came about the components of different solutions the author said that the Fixer solution is the same Same user in process (E6)
These observations raise a number of questions.
The most important of these are.
First - Is this process valid from modern (100) & (valvia) positive films?
Second - If the answer is yes, will we need to take the first two steps that are before the first developer step?

Third - Why did Kodak re-publish that document in the year 2000? There were no films at the time being produced according to the emulsion (E4).

 

[mohmad khatab]

Late reply, but I'll do it anyway... Light reexposure is perfectly fine and very reliable. It might be a bit boring, but that's all. It's not difficult, doesn't require specialised equipment and light sources and saves you from trying to source some chemicals and formulate a reversal bath, or fogging colour developer. I've been doing it for years for both E6 and BW slides and definitely have zero problems. Here's what I do after a proper wash from the previous step:

• Keep the film on the typical Paterson, AP, Jobo, whatever reels. You certainly don't need clear plastic ones, nor remove it from the reel.
• Put your film in a bowl of water. It should be submerged. I use a white plastic bowl that previously had marmalade, works a treat for the purpose.
• Find a lamp. I happen to have an old tungsten 75W lamp in the shed where I process my film. It is more than capable for fogging film.
• Keep the bowl with film under the lamp at a distance of 20-30cm, distance is not critical. While it is there, spin it around for 2' from each side. After that, you're done. 2' is probably a lot, but won't hurt.
• Load the reel(s) in the tank and resume processing with the next step.

That's all.

My Greek brother
Come on, tell me the truth ,, I'm almost crazy.
With regard to the strength of the tungsten lamp.
Our British friend says it should be 1000 watts, while you say 75 watts is enough. I am really confused. The difference between the two numbers is huge and cannot be reconciled.

- When the film reel is placed in the white plate, must the plate have water or it is completely dry?

 

[mohmad khatab]

Since you're using this developer only on E-6 films, there's no need for the Benzyl Alcohol, which was necessary only with the dye couplers in E-3 and E-4 films. I'd be much more concerned about wrong developing agent or wrong pH for modern film if you start with an E-4 color developer.

I feel some sadness ,,
Why do you hate benzyl alcohol? It is a very gentle and polite solution and does not offend anyone.
I have confirmed that it is currently available at the state chemical company and at a very acceptable price and in high quality ,, I will go buy it next 12th since this is the annual inventory response..and I will also buy ethylenediamine.
Benzel Alcohol did a great job in the 1960s and 1970s. Why are we dealing with it now with contempt?
I will defend him as before and I defended copper sulfate.

 

[Anon Ymous]

My Greek brother
Come on, tell me the truth ,, I'm almost crazy.
With regard to the strength of the tungsten lamp.
Our British friend says it should be 1000 watts, while you say 75 watts is enough. I am really confused. The difference between the two numbers is huge and cannot be reconciled.

- When the film reel is placed in the white plate, must the plate have water or it is completely dry?

Yes, I've been using the same 75W lamp for years and it has worked flawlessly for both E6 and BW slides. The film reel must be submerged in water while in the bowl/container/whatever you have handy. It's been years since my first tries, but IIRC without water you're running the risk of having irregular density marks on the film.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

Third - Why did Kodak re-publish that document in the year 2000? There were no films at the time being produced according to the emulsion (E4).

There might have been a legal obligation requiring Kodak to support processing of such films for some decades. Just a guess.

 

[mohmad khatab]

Yes, I've been using the same 75W lamp for years and it has worked flawlessly for both E6 and BW slides. The film reel must be submerged in water while in the bowl/container/whatever you have handy. It's been years since my first tries, but IIRC without water you're running the risk of having irregular density marks on the film.

I love Greece so much
- Should the water cover the reel completely, just a few millimeters above the reel level?

 

[mohmad khatab]

There might have been a legal obligation requiring Kodak to support processing of such films for some decades. Just a guess.

I love India very much and eat chicken 65.
- No, brother Raghu, it's not like that.
- I noticed that there are several professional laboratories in Southeast Asia that are still providing the chip development service using that formula (E4) ..
- I have received an announcement from one of the Malaysian laboratories, telling me that they provide film development services for the following categories: etc. etc. etc. He did not mention (E6) but mentioned (E4).
I marveled a lot at this and thought it was an old advertisement since the seventies for example or something like that, but I checked the page of the laboratory and found that it was a laboratory for the sake of amateurs, but it gradually became semi-professional and provides services to photographers for a regular fee.

, - I tried to communicate with the person in charge of this laboratory through the official page of the laboratory on Facebook in order to inquire about this matter, but he was a young man, arrogant and evil and did not care to speak to me when he learned that I am not a citizen of his country.

- Therefore, I suspect that some countries may use this formula instead of formula (E6), perhaps because it is somewhat easy to prepare and somewhat cheap ... I really do not know.

- But what concerns me ,, - Do they use all the steps of the process including the steps before the first developer (maybe they are important steps to build on) I don't know.

 

[Anon Ymous]

I love Greece so much
- Should the water cover the reel completely, just a few millimeters above the reel level?

Yes, few mm are fine, that's how I do. As long as it is completely submerged, you'll have no problems.

 

[mohmad khatab]

Yes, few mm are fine, that's how I do. As long as it is completely submerged, you'll have no problems.

God bless you
you're a great man
Greetings to all the brotherly people of Greece

Is there an urgent need to move the reel while it is exposed to lamp light?
Or is it sufficient only for the lamp light to be spread evenly across the surface of the pulley?
- Exposure time, 2 minutes per side or 1 minute?