How to be a color developer containing (Reversal) Bath

[mohmad khatab]

With regard to the process (E6)
I want to combine the color developer with the Reversal Bath solution, so that we can provide the inversion step without any problems.
- Do I find any thinking in this regard?
God bless you.
Greetings to all .

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

Mohmad, why do you want to make life complicated by combining reversal bath with colour developer? Instead, have you considered using light fogging in place of chemical reversal bath as recommended by PE?

 

[mohmad khatab]

Mohmad, why do you want to make life complicated by combining reversal bath with colour developer? Instead, have you considered using light fogging in place of chemical reversal bath as recommended by PE?

I prefer Reversal chemical bath, because it gives consistent and more reliable results, and the error rate for re-exposure is very small,
- But the manual method requires an expert person who has a light source that has been tested before many times and knows exactly what is the appropriate distance that should be between the light source and the slide,
Also, the slide should be almost dry, you must have a good type film wiper, because any drop of water on the surface of the film would work as if it were a zoom lens and amplifies the light falling on it to several times, and this It would increase exposure again in one place more than elsewhere.
- All these reasons and many others are what made me the best chemical method.
- And since the chemical fluid is always suffering from the sudden death dilemma, it has bogged into my mind that if it were incorporated into the color developer (similar to the Titanal method and other companies), I think this would guarantee a longer life time than it would have if it was a separate liquid.
- I really do not know, but I want to know.

 

[halfaman]

The only formula I can find is CD of E-4 process, the predecessor of E-6, that includes the reversal agent and CD-3.

https://125px.com/docs/techpubs/kodak/cis111-E4_Forumulas.pdf (page 2)

You can and you should substitute Tertiary butylamine borane (highly toxic) with stannous chloride.

 

[Donald Qualls]

The Cinestill E-6 kit uses a self-reversing color developer, as do at least some of the other commercial E-6 kits. My understanding is that they include stannous chloride as the fogging agent, but the amount has to be just right. Tool little, you get thin slides; too much, and it can block developing action and produce thin or even blank slides. Which, to me, sounds like a good bit of testing.

Light exposure is generally specified to be enough to reach Dmax and then a good margin -- precisely to avoid the effects of lensing by water drops.

 

[mohmad khatab]

The Cinestill E-6 kit uses a self-reversing color developer, as do at least some of the other commercial E-6 kits. My understanding is that they include stannous chloride as the fogging agent, but the amount has to be just right. Tool little, you get thin slides; too much, and it can block developing action and produce thin or even blank slides. Which, to me, sounds like a good bit of testing.

Light exposure is generally specified to be enough to reach Dmax and then a good margin -- precisely to avoid the effects of lensing by water drops.

I am glad you no longer hate me.
- I am inquiring until I get the right kit exactly, yes
Thank you for your reply ,,
God bless you ,,

 

[mohmad khatab]

The only formula I can find is CD of E-4 process, the predecessor of E-6, that includes the reversal agent and CD-3.

https://125px.com/docs/techpubs/kodak/cis111-E4_Forumulas.pdf (page 2)

You can and you should substitute Tertiary butylamine borane (highly toxic) with stannous chloride.

Will the Cetanos component work just as well as the original component?
The idea is beautiful and worth a try.
Thank you very much, my dear teacher, God bless you.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

@mohmad khatab: What reversal bath are you currently using? Is it Tin chloride? Tin chloride is unstable in solution as it undergoes hydrolysis. Apparently you can prevent this by putting small pieces of Tin into the solution. See this:

It sounds like the stannous chloride has undergone hydrolysis. A way to prevent this is to have a few small pieces of tin metal in the bottle.

 

[Rudeofus]

Typical reversal bathes prevent hydrolysis of Stannous Chloride with sequestering agents. There are certainly no pieces of tin metal in E6 reversal bathes or in E6 CD including reversal agents. Once you use these sequestering agents, the exact amount of reversal agent should also be a lot less critical.

 

[mohmad khatab]

These equestering agents are very expensive, I can't buy them ,,
I see that there is no objection to placing a small piece of tin inside the bottle ,,
But the basic question did not limit enough attention.
Process color developer (E4) A Reversal solution has been incorporated into it, but this element is probably a little different and I don't know if tin chloride will do the trick or not?
Regarding Benzyl alcohol, I have not found it in Egypt at the moment, so can it be replaced by something else?

 

[halfaman]

As I mentioned before, use tin chloride.The reversal agent of E-4 is highly toxic and was substituted by tin chloride in E-6.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-4_process

Nevertheless, E-4 CD formula is very similar to published E-6 CD formulas without reversal agent. I would use an E-6 CD and test different tin chlorides additions. Find bellow a formula for E-6 CD.

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...arnig-longer-than-assumend.32721/#post-465873

 

[mohmad khatab]

As I mentioned before, use tin chloride.The reversal agent of E-4 is highly toxic and was substituted by tin chloride in E-6.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-4_process

Nevertheless, E-4 CD formula is very similar to published E-6 CD formulas without reversal agent. I would use an E-6 CD and test different tin chlorides additions. Find bellow a formula for E-6 CD.

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...arnig-longer-than-assumend.32721/#post-465873

Your idea is really great, really great, and it works as a springboard.
- Yes, I have to do a color developer (E6) and then add (0.07) grams of tin chloride, and we can do this test and we may find something good.

 

[halfaman]

I think it is a reasonable start.

By the way, current stand-alone reversal baths formulas I see for E-6 have tin chloride between 1.0 and 1.5 gr per liter.

 

[mohmad khatab]

I think it is a reasonable start.

By the way, current stand-alone reversal baths formulas I see for E-6 have tin chloride between 1.0 and 1.5 gr per liter.

I really apologize.
Can you give me models (recipes) from the independent baths (Reversal) you are talking about.
Which one you consider best through your personal experience?
Which one does not have sudden death.
Greetings to Club Atlético Bilbao.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

I'm curious to know how adding tin chloride to E6 colour developer would solve the sudden death problem? Are you counting on the sequestering agent present in the colour developer to prevent the hydrolysis of tin chloride?

 

[halfaman]

Here: (1.0 gr per liter)
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/e-6-color-reversal-development-fuji-recipes.34588/

And here: (1.5 gr per liter)
https://rec.photo.film-labs.narkive.com/jxqjJFhS/e6-chemical-formulas

I have never tried anything like this, so no personal experience to share, but I don't think you will have any "sudden death" if the solution is prepared for use at once.

 

[mohmad khatab]

I'm curious to know how adding tin chloride to E6 colour developer would solve the sudden death problem? Are you counting on the sequestering agent present in the colour developer to prevent the hydrolysis of tin chloride?

Yes, dear friend ,, just as in the process developer’s (E4) recipe

 

[mohmad khatab]

Here: (1.0 gr per liter)
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/e-6-color-reversal-development-fuji-recipes.34588/

And here: (1.5 gr per liter)
https://rec.photo.film-labs.narkive.com/jxqjJFhS/e6-chemical-formulas

I have never tried anything like this, so no personal experience to share, but I don't think you will have any "sudden death" if the solution is prepared for use at once.

That is the big problem.
I don't want lotion to work one shot ,,
I want to sell a group of photochemistry to the professional lab, and it won't work out when I sell it to a solution that is suitable for only one use. This is totally useless.
< Reversal solution>
Nitrilo-N,N,N-trimethylene 3.0 g
phosphonic acid
pentasodium salt
Stannous chloride dihydrate 1.0 g
p-aminophenol 0.1 g
Sodium hydroxide 8 g
Glacial acetic acid 15 mL
Water to make 1,000 mL
pH 6.00

This is a formula that is difficult to obtain for all of these elements.
I do not think it is intended for one use only.

 

[halfaman]

That is the big problem.
This is a formula that is difficult to obtain for all of these elements. I do not think it is intended for one use only.

I don't think either, I was referring to your idea of removing the sequestrant from the formula (in this case
Nitrilo-N,N,N-trimethylene phosphonic acid pentasodium salt) and replace it with tin particles. I find it risky, specially if you plan to sell the product, without being totally sure it really works.

 

[mohmad khatab]

I don't think either, I was referring to your idea of removing the sequestrant from the formula (in this case
Nitrilo-N,N,N-trimethylene phosphonic acid pentasodium salt) and replace it with tin particles. I find it risky, specially if you plan to sell the product, without being totally sure it really works.

This is not the solution I want.
My teacher / road engineer from Austria sent me 10 grams of DTPA,
and I am afraid to lose three grams in this test in vain.
I want to merge the reversal factor with the color developer in the same style as the color developer (E4) ,, I am very impressed with this developer and I think it is very suitable and very practical and inexpensive ,,
- I just did not find the substance (benzyl alcohol) ,, I am very tired of the great search for this substance in Egypt and I did not find it at all and I do not know what is the safe alternative to this component.?

 

[halfaman]

Benzyl alcohol was used long time ago to increase dye couplers activity, it is most probably not needed with modern films so you can ignore it. Find bellow a discussion about it.

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/c-22-recipe.104926/

 

[Anon Ymous]

I prefer Reversal chemical bath, because it gives consistent and more reliable results, and the error rate for re-exposure is very small, ...

Late reply, but I'll do it anyway... Light reexposure is perfectly fine and very reliable. It might be a bit boring, but that's all. It's not difficult, doesn't require specialised equipment and light sources and saves you from trying to source some chemicals and formulate a reversal bath, or fogging colour developer. I've been doing it for years for both E6 and BW slides and definitely have zero problems. Here's what I do after a proper wash from the previous step:

• Keep the film on the typical Paterson, AP, Jobo, whatever reels. You certainly don't need clear plastic ones, nor remove it from the reel.
• Put your film in a bowl of water. It should be submerged. I use a white plastic bowl that previously had marmalade, works a treat for the purpose.
• Find a lamp. I happen to have an old tungsten 75W lamp in the shed where I process my film. It is more than capable for fogging film.
• Keep the bowl with film under the lamp at a distance of 20-30cm, distance is not critical. While it is there, spin it around for 2' from each side. After that, you're done. 2' is probably a lot, but won't hurt.
• Load the reel(s) in the tank and resume processing with the next step.

That's all.

 

[mohmad khatab]

Late reply, but I'll do it anyway... Light reexposure is perfectly fine and very reliable. It might be a bit boring, but that's all. It's not difficult, doesn't require specialised equipment and light sources and saves you from trying to source some chemicals and formulate a reversal bath, or fogging colour developer. I've been doing it for years for both E6 and BW slides and definitely have zero problems. Here's what I do after a proper wash from the previous step:

• Keep the film on the typical Paterson, AP, Jobo, whatever reels. You certainly don't need clear plastic ones, nor remove it from the reel.
• Put your film in a bowl of water. It should be submerged. I use a white plastic bowl that previously had marmalade, works a treat for the purpose.
• Find a lamp. I happen to have an old tungsten 75W lamp in the shed where I process my film. It is more than capable for fogging film.
• Keep the bowl with film under the lamp at a distance of 20-30cm, distance is not critical. While it is there, spin it around for 2' from each side. After that, you're done. 2' is probably a lot, but won't hurt.
• Load the reel(s) in the tank and resume processing with the next step.

That's all.

Thank you very much for the reply ,,
God bless you .
There is no doubt that you have a very interesting and important experience and I trust that it is a very shocking experience.
- On a personal level, I will do it.
- But my dear friend, it is assumed that this photochemistry fundamentally will be prepared for sale to a semi-professional laboratory that provides film development services to amateurs for a reasonable fee.
I will do these tests, but at the same time I am looking for other alternatives if this test fails.
You are a respectable man, cordial greetings to the brotherly people of Greece.
God bless you .

 

[mohmad khatab]

Benzyl alcohol was used long time ago to increase dye couplers activity, it is most probably not needed with modern films so you can ignore it. Find bellow a discussion about it.

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/c-22-recipe.104926/

Thank you, dear sir.
I reviewed this discussion ,,
But he was talking about the process (C22) - the discussion was fantastic, but the issue of dispensing benzyl alcohol was not confirmed for sure.
Maybe I will test it at some point.
God bless you

 

[Rudeofus]

Several decades ago color couplers were some oily substances, and water based color developers had difficulties getting to these couplers. The Benzyl Alcohol contained in color developers back then enabled contact between color developer and color couplers.

This problem was solved several decades ago, therefore E-6 films do not require Benzyl alcohol. Don't waste further thoughts or money on this compound.