How to achieve high detail/tonality?

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RTMoynihan

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Hi all,
I've been browsing through some of the galleries on people's signature things and I've noticed that many of them have a really nice tonality and detail. I'm not sure as to whether it comes from shooting large format sheet film or whether it's in film or print developing. For example Dead Link Removed there is really good mid tones, highlights and deep blacks. How would you go about getting a 'High dynamic range' without shooting separate exposures like in d****l?
Cheers,
Rory
 

kompressor

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Hi all,
I've been browsing through some of the galleries on people's signature things and I've noticed that many of them have a really nice tonality and detail. I'm not sure as to whether it comes from shooting large format sheet film or whether it's in film or print developing. For example Dead Link Removed there is really good mid tones, highlights and deep blacks. How would you go about getting a 'High dynamic range' without shooting separate exposures like in d****l?
Cheers,
Rory

Exposure for the scenes demand. Development for that exposure and skills in the darkromm during printing. Thats the formula:smile:
 

Ian Grant

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The secret is the exposure and development, in many cases tailoring the development and EI to suit the dynamic range in the scene.

Two systems can be used the Zone System of a ore empirical version which is effectively the same BZT, (Beyond the Zone system). It's worth reading Ansel Adams the Negative.

Printing is secondary unless the information is there in the negative it's to late.

Ian
 

keithwms

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Why not buy Ralph's book, which is coming out in the fall :wink: If I had to guess, I'd say these scenes were printed with some contrast masking, but why not ask Ralph.

But in brief... b&w film can handle a *spectacular* amount of range, it blows digital right out of the water in terms of single exposure capabilities. Using the developer POTA can yield 20+ stops of range, no muss no fuss, very easy to do. Even without POTA, there are developers that 'compensate' and help you out with highlights, and there are other strategies such as pull processing that can also help in this regard. You can also preflash your film. And besides all that, you can also do multi-exposures. There is also a group of techniques called SLIMT that help with contrasty negs.

So... there are many ways to do it. Best would be to find something you like and ask the person how he/she did it. I betcha most of the time it is standard exposure and film processing, with a little masking. Intricate masking has become a bit more popular now that you can make very intricate masks on an inkjet, but that would be something to discuss over at hybridphoto. And suffice it to way, you can get these kinds of results in a fully analogue way. In addition to masking, you can do things like use the warmth of your hand in the paper developer to speed up development locally, or you can bleach selectively.

All in all there are about two dozen ways to deal with scene contrast that come to mind.
 

keithwms

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That's a pretty big allegation, paulie, against a person who has done much for this community, and who is very widely respected. You also seem to be implying that it isn't possible to get such results without PS... and that is false.

Anyway... one always has to bear in mid that the best representation of a print is the print itself... not a web version. It's a cheap shot to look at a print scanned to a web image and say it looks digital. Duh, of course it does, you're looking at it on a computer screen, for crying out loud.
 

MVNelson

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As Ian said , it is the negative. You can get very nice prints from sub-optimal negatives if you have the darkroom skills and are willing and capable. If on the other hand you want your printing experience to not start from a handicapped position an optimal negative is what you are after. I had to learn a method (BTZS) in order to drive down the waste in materials and time. Though there is a learning curve once you are there you will be able to dial in exposure/development with ease and the resultant negatives will be a lot easier to work with. With the efficiencies of a system approach you will have more time to devote to developing your own personal photographic expression .
 

MVNelson

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Paulie, I loath personal attacks and will shun this type of controversy like the leprosy but I have to agree with Keith. Ralph's work in monochrome photography is in my opinion quite impressive. It is true that you can masterfully produce black and white negatives solely for the purpose of digital scanning and printing. Those negatives would still most likely be printable in the darkroom however and depending on what medium (silver gelatin , alternative,etc) their suitability for such would have to be determined by the photographer. My complaint to you is that you make a blanket statement in a somewhat demeaning fashion about a photographers process that you appear to know little about. Did you ask Ralph if the negatives which he used to make those images were indeed unprintable ?

Miles
 

darkosaric

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That's a pretty big allegation, paulie, against a person who has done much for this community, and who is very widely respected. You also seem to be implying that it isn't possible to get such results without PS... and that is false.

I think Paulie is joking :confused:
In my case problem is that usually I can not (or I am just too lazy) get nice scan. Silver gelatin print look absolutely perfect, but in scanning for web I lose a lot of details, and rarely scan look nice as print that I hold in my hands.
 

Silence

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If you browse Paulie's posts you can see that they all have that annoying tone.

The best one can do is ignore him... *shrugs*
 

David A. Goldfarb

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Indoor/outdoor lighting is a difficult situation, but the usual methods are using Zone System or BTZS-type exposure and development control to get a negative that prints on the desired medium, and then contrast masking is a further option for getting highlight detail in that situation, or ordinary dodging and burning, depending on the complexity of the scene. I suspect Ralph will come by and explained what techniques he used in this print.

Printing-out-processes like albumen printing and Ziatype are ideal for these kinds of scenes, because they are self-masking. If you want more highlight detail, you can usually just increase the print exposure until the highlights come in, and the shadows will mask themselves automatically.

Here's an example, where I was standing under a covered observation deck, shooting in full sun, so the trees in the foreground are in shadow, and the waterfall is in full sun, and there's detail everywhere. Without checking my notes, I probably gave it -1 or -2 development as well as printing in albumen. It's not easy to get it all across in a scan, but this should give you a sort of idea--

http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidagoldfarb/4420348208/in/set-72157611396199449/
 

keithwms

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Printing-out-processes like albumen printing and Ziatype are ideal for these kinds of scenes, because they are self-masking.

I learn something new every day! Ziatype is self masking? Do you have any examples with it? I have been considering trying it and the masking property hadn't occurred to me.
 

MVNelson

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I think the concept of "self masking" might hold for most alternative printing (zia,kalli,Pt/Pd, salt,etc) . the very long tonal scale of these processes allow for printing great SBR scenes as exampled by David ......
 

David A. Goldfarb

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I haven't done Ziatype myself, but I'm told by people who do it that it is self-masking, because it's a printing-out process, and my understanding is that self-masking is generally a property of printing-out processes, because the shadows will mask themselves during the exposure as they appear, as opposed to developing-out processes, where there is no (or very little) change in the density of the emulsion layer during the exposure.

I'd like to try Ziatype at some point. I've seen a lot of prints that I like made with this process, and it looks a bit less labor intensive than albumen.

This is another good example of the self-masking property of albumen--

http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidagoldfarb/3124468556/in/set-72157611396199449/

Normally I'd need either a grad filter or I'd have to burn in the sky to get the cloud detail, but with albumen, as long as it's all on the neg, you just wait for it to come in, and you can inspect the print as it prints out.
 
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keithwms

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Bottom line, there are many ways to take what detail is in your neg and print it well, even if the neg is very contrasty or not contrasty at all. But you do of course first ned the detail in your neg... and for that b&w film truly excels.
 
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Hi all,
I've been browsing through some of the galleries on people's signature things and I've noticed that many of them have a really nice tonality and detail. I'm not sure as to whether it comes from shooting large format sheet film or whether it's in film or print developing. For example Dead Link Removed there is really good mid tones, highlights and deep blacks. How would you go about getting a 'High dynamic range' without shooting separate exposures like in d****l?
Cheers,
Rory

Rory

I'm glad to hear that you like the church pictures. Let me tell you how they were taken and made to clarify that there really is no 'magic' involved.

1. all taken on Tmax-400 (EI 250), developed in D76/ID11 1+1
2. they are a mixture of 6x6 and 4x5
3. exposed for Zone III, developed for Zone VIII
4. printed on grade 2-3, Ilford Multigrade IV-FB
5. appropriate dodge and burn for all of them
6. extra burn-in for windows through a custom mask
7. toned in selenium and sulphide toners
8. custom spotting for all prints
7. scanned and digitally corrected so highlights and shadows fall on 4% and 96%, respectively
8. no other digital manipulations

There is one very important message for point 3 above. The Zone System should not be used to always 'catch' the entire subject brightness range. If you have a single bright light (such as a church window), and you make it part of the Zone System work, it will push all other tones down, and you will lose the midtone contrast. I ignore bright highlight features, and let them go where they want to (sometimes Zone XI or above). It's easier to burn them in with a custom mask during printing. Tmax can handle this overexposure, because I don't develop it with a highlight roll-off (shoulder), which would compress these highlights. It's indeed as you said, almost like having two exposures on the same negative.
 

Rick A

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Ralph, thank you for the insight to your methods. I have been struggling with how to shoot for the "perfect" print for years. I now know I've been on the right path, and can continue to push myself forward, armed with more knowledge of your process than before. Thank you for letting me know I dont have to concern myself with window light( unless that is the subject of the shot), thats been a problem for me. I guess now I'll have to buy your book.
 

vdonovan

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Thanks Ralph. A thoughtful, straightforward answer like this is quite inspiring. I've got your book and I'm looking forward to the new version.

Rory

I'm glad to hear that you like the church pictures. Let me tell you how they were taken and made to clarify that there really is no 'magic' involved.

1. all taken on Tmax-400 (EI 250), developed in D76/ID11 1+1
2. they are a mixture of 6x6 and 4x5
3. exposed for Zone III, developed for Zone VIII
4. printed on grade 2-3, Ilford Multigrade IV-FB
5. appropriate dodge and burn for all of them
6. extra burn-in for windows through a custom mask
7. toned in selenium and sulphide toners
8. custom spotting for all prints
7. scanned and digitally corrected so highlights and shadows fall on 4% and 96%, respectively
8. no other digital manipulations

There is one very important message for point 3 above. The Zone System should not be used to always 'catch' the entire subject brightness range. If you have a single bright light (such as a church window), and you make it part of the Zone System work, it will push all other tones down, and you will lose the midtone contrast. I ignore bright highlight features, and let them go where they want to (sometimes Zone XI or above). It's easier to burn them in with a custom mask during printing. Tmax can handle this overexposure, because I don't develop it with a highlight roll-off (shoulder), which would compress these highlights. It's indeed as you said, almost like having two exposures on the same negative.
 

MVNelson

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indeed thanks Ralph ... I use BTZS and agree that trying to incapsulate the brightest highlights will shove the low values down and also agree that the Tmax's love going out there if you let them, maintaining very good highlight separation....
 

Bruce Watson

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...many of them have a really nice tonality and detail... there is really good mid tones, highlights and deep blacks.

Simple really: Expose for the shadows and develop for the highlights. That's what it all comes down to; that's how you create a negative that contains all the information you need to make an outstanding print.

There are many books out there, many systems that either try to make it a big mystery or try to explain the mystery out of it. My personal favorite is still Adams' book The Negative. Bit of a tough read, but all the information is there. Picker's Zone VI Workshop is an easier read. And there are literally dozens of other books out there, one or more are likely to be to your taste.

But all these systems simplify down to the old saw: Expose for the shadows and develop for the highlights. And once you've mastered the material, it really is that simple in practice.
 
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RTMoynihan

RTMoynihan

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Wow, awesome thanks for all that!
Right, I've reserved both Adams' 'The negative' and 'The print' from the library so as to get my head around what Ralph is describing in his steps.
I've done some internet reading about the zone system and even though they all start off with 'this really isn't that difficult' I think it's an easy thing to say if you've already learned it!
Ralph says in step 3 that he exposed for zone III and developed for zone VIII. What I've gleaned from this is that you've exposed for details in the shadows so as to retain detail but also to achieve a darker than zone V grey that you would normally get from metering straight off? So for example in the Dead Link Removed photo the arch in the top right of the photo you want at zone III and so to get that as zone III you meter, which is at zone V which is 'normal' (plain grey), then reduce by two stops to get it darker and at zone III??? :confused: ie if it reads at f11/125 when metered, reduce by two stops as that is for zone V so it becomes f11/500 and so that is now ready to expose for zone III?!
Sorry if it seems like I'm being obtuse I just want to get it straight in my head!
Cheers,
Rory
 

CBG

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Before anything else the first step is exposure if you are looking for gorgeous tonality.

I have recently set up a darkroom for the first time in decades. For me, the first roadblock I had to overcome was getting my exposures in line. I'm shooting mostly medium format, 6x7 (and some LF too) and 6x7 negs can handle a beefy exposure pretty well. LF can handle very beefy negs. Years ago, I didn't even know what a good neg looked like and I underexposed everything. There was a time when all the photo mags were enamored of street shooting and everyone seemed to be shooting at ei 64,000,000 or thereabouts. So I thought that minimal exposure was a key. I was shooting 35 at the time and didn't know better.

Anyway, I'm now shooting black and white, processing myself, using 6x7 up to 8x10 LF, and packing as much light as I can into my negs ( but just up to the point that it's too much). I've sorted out how to keep the highlights under control by not overdeveloping them. The result is far - far - better negs.

The other half of the equation is learning to print better. Years ago I did commercial photography, did my own lab work, and thought I was pretty good. I can see now that I was barely passable if your standards were low enough. Given a more patient and methodical approach, everything I'm printing now is markedly better. I'm too slow a typist to spell out every step I am doing now to be a better printer, but suffice it to say good negs are only the first half. A couple of the more important printing items as I see them:

1. I don't worry about wasted paper now. Get to full size prints sooner than later. Better to under and overshoot the perfect exposure, and in the process truly see what the whole negative looks like when given over and underexposures. A little test strip only tells so much, and only about a small portion of the print. If in the end, through cheapness, I don't get a good print at all, I have wasted everything I have used, whereas if I do get a really good print I have only wasted some of my paper. And what looks like waste may not be. That too dark or too light print may tell me I like a more interpretive rendition. And I never would have found that out if I am too miserly with paper.

2. I'm wayyyy more methodical when printing so I really have a chance to know what I am doing. I keep detailed notes of all exposures. all burns and all dodges etc. Each test print (not test strip) gets ID'd on the back, in fine Sherpie, with roll, and negative number, the type of paper, the work print number, and any other data I may need during the session, and for toning, and for future reference. I use very wide borders so that my writing on the edge of the back is not under the image. It is so much easier to really tune up a print if I can compare all the variations on the way against the exact steps it took to make them. I usually make something like seven to eleven full size prints before I feel like I am getting to where I don't see any clear way to improve it.

3. I start with a full size print plain vanilla uncreative representation of the scene, and then move toward a more satisfying interpretation. That first plain print is there to remind me that the scene might be best served by a simple rendition. In truth, it rarely is. But I keep a complete unmanipulated record of the scene. It keeps me honest. Most times though, I end up with local control of almost every area in the image; some sort of burning or dodging everywhere.

4. Where the scene demands I also plan for local reduction with a brush to adjust items too small for dodging. I use a ferricyanide reducer with bromide and no thiosulfate in it in it so that I can also selectively redevelop reduced areas or correct over-reduced areas.

5. The pile of not quite right exposures is not a total loss. I keep in mind that the slightly light print may be just right if heavily toned in selenium, and that somewhat dark prints may be perfect for Viradon toning which lightens prints somewhat. Really dark prints may be perfect for bleach and Viradon toning which dramatically lightens prints.

6. Make big exposure jumps when trying to zoom in on the "perfect" exposure. There is an article online somewhere - I don't recall where - that advocates straddling printing exposures. If you are at 20 seconds and you thing the perfect exposure may be at 23 seconds, try 27 or so. You'll see where things lie in the middle, or once in a while, that it should have been 30 sec. But if you do 20 sec, then 22, then 24, the 26... you'll be tired and broke before you get to the right exposure. Use bigger jumps and you will arrive sooner and cheaper.
 

David A. Goldfarb

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As someone who doesn't generally care for the T-max look, I'll agree with Ralph here that this kind of scene is exactly what works well with T-max films, because they have such a long straight line curve that goes past any normal exposure range. That second image that I posted above was actually on old TMX 8x10" from before they added the UV absorbing layer, which makes it less useful for UV-sensitive processes. The current version of TMX sheet film has the UV-absorbing layer, but TMY-II sheet film does not (TMY-II rollfilm does have the UV-absorbing layer).
 

df cardwell

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It's either a massive bag of tricks and techniques, or just learn to see.
 

paulie

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oops i had no idea you would take offense to my post. oh well its been removed so nobody will even know what i had written Capture.JPG

this is why i mentioned digital approaches

i believe that this statement is a little strange
 
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