How to achieve big sharp grain with normal tonality?

[Juan Valdenebro]

Just because it seems to have been totally ignored, ILFOSOL-3 will give you what you want. Big, sharp grain.

Thank you, NB... I saw the previous mention... Do you use it? I've heard it has short life, but I have not used it... Why does it produce bigger, sharper grain?

 

[radiant]

I tried to develop some grainy stuff today.

I tought Rodinal cannot expire? Got some heavily underdeveloped negs. Rodinal bottle had some hard crystals rattlin in the bottle.

 

[Lachlan Young]

I tried to develop some grainy stuff today.

I tought Rodinal cannot expire? Got some heavily underdeveloped negs. Rodinal bottle had some hard crystals rattlin in the bottle.

How long did you leave the working solution to sit before pouring into the developing tank? The current ADOX Rodinal has at least an 18 month life expectancy from my experience - though I've seen crystallization in Foma's RO9.

 

[radiant]

How long did you leave the working solution to sit before pouring into the developing tank? The current ADOX Rodinal has at least an 18 month life expectancy from my experience - though I've seen crystallization in Foma's RO9.

Actually, yes. I left it for maybe 15 minutes. Is that the reason?

I really thought it was not a joke that rodinal lasts from father to daughter. But 18 months life expectancy is not near that, I thought it would last for years.

 

[Lachlan Young]

Actually, yes. I left it for maybe 15 minutes. Is that the reason?

Quite probably - you really want to mix almost immediately before pouring into the tank. I've seen Rodinal mixed to working strength die completely after 30 mins or thereabouts (hence why most of the stand developing claims are questionable).

The 18 months was purely referring to the longest interval of time it took me to use up a 500ml bottle (I mainly use ID-11).

 

[Juan Valdenebro]

Just because it seems to have been totally ignored, ILFOSOL-3 will give you what you want. Big, sharp grain.

It has a little higher ph than D-76, and users' reports talk about low speed... From what I've read it's people who scan who find big grain... Do you have any wet print grain sample?
Anyway for tripod I'd prefer an additive on D-76, and for street an additive on Microphen...

 

[Alan Johnson]

https://groups.google.com/g/rec.photo.darkroom/c/zp8vBn9P8Nw/m/s_CxtNngxPgJ
Here the photochemist Michael Gudzinowicz quotes a Kodak Paper that gives results for granularity based on D-76 = 100
Developer AH-18 gave the highest granularity in the series tested , = 161
AH-18 contained per liter 0.25 g metol, 10g sufite, 20g sodium metaborate (Kodalk)
Since the pH of this AH-18 would be close to that of metaborate, ~ pH 11,the Kodak paper confirms that larger grain is obtained at higher pH.

 

[Donald Qualls]

I've seen Rodinal mixed to working strength die completely after 30 mins or thereabouts (hence why most of the stand developing claims are questionable).

I can't talk directly about commercially made Rodinal clones (though I doubt it's a myth for them, either), but Parodinal (homebrewed work-alike) certainly does support one hour stand development -- I've done it. Now, I can't say it isn't doing all its real work in the first 15-30 minutes (at 1:100 dilution, it would run above 15 minutes with normal agitation anyway), and then dying -- but that's partially the point of stand development: local exhaustion, to limit contrast (especially by shouldering off very high exposure) and produce edge effects that enhance apparent sharpness.

Now, I've never mixed working solution Parodinal and then left it to stand in the graduate for more than long enough to fill the stop bath and fixer graduates, verify temperature, and set the timer -- but at 1:25 or 1:50 I wouldn't expect thirty minutes to be a problem. I've left Caffenol (the non-ascorbate original version, which is completely free of preservatives) for fifteen minutes or more, to settle micro-bubbles from the laundry soda, and it works fine -- though I don't know of any reason I'd leave it for an hour, since it doesn't lend itself as much to stand development.

 

[Pixophrenic]

Just because it seems to have been totally ignored, ILFOSOL-3 will give you what you want. Big, sharp grain.

You are right. Ilfosol has a higher pH than Microphen, as it was formulated to be used highly diluted, so grain is larger relative to Microphen. The subtle difference is if OP likes metol-hydroquinone kind of grain of "boosted" D-76 or phenidone-hydroquinone kind of grain of Ilfosol..

 

[Pixophrenic]

If I remember well, lowering the amount of sulfite in D-76 for less solvency effect brings the problem of reduced shelf life...
This makes me consider the best option for adding a chemical to an already mixed developer could be adding it just before its use: I mean adding the chemical only to the stock volume we are about to use for mixing -with water- the one shot dilution... Has someone done this?

I am sure it would work with diluted Microphen, I just don't know how much soda you have to add to reach pH 10 to 10.5. As another poster (NB23) mentioned, Ilfosol is just what it is, kind of MIcrophen with less sulfite in the working dilution and sodium carbonate in place of borax. Aiming for a 2 stop push with original Microphen also gives prominent grain, the question is if you personally like it or not.

 

[Lachlan Young]

I can't talk directly about commercially made Rodinal clones (though I doubt it's a myth for them, either), but Parodinal (homebrewed work-alike) certainly does support one hour stand development -- I've done it. Now, I can't say it isn't doing all its real work in the first 15-30 minutes (at 1:100 dilution, it would run above 15 minutes with normal agitation anyway), and then dying -- but that's partially the point of stand development: local exhaustion, to limit contrast (especially by shouldering off very high exposure) and produce edge effects that enhance apparent sharpness.

Now, I've never mixed working solution Parodinal and then left it to stand in the graduate for more than long enough to fill the stop bath and fixer graduates, verify temperature, and set the timer -- but at 1:25 or 1:50 I wouldn't expect thirty minutes to be a problem. I've left Caffenol (the non-ascorbate original version, which is completely free of preservatives) for fifteen minutes or more, to settle micro-bubbles from the laundry soda, and it works fine -- though I don't know of any reason I'd leave it for an hour, since it doesn't lend itself as much to stand development.

If Agfa seems to have largely steered shy of 20-30 minute developing times, especially at high dilutions - and Phil Davis (BTZS) reported that his sensitometric results indicated nothing much was happening after about 20 minutes, I think it's fair to suggest that times over 20 minutes in Rodinal probably are largely irrelevant. I'd also add that I recall that the gamma/ CI reported by Agfa for 1+100 times at about 20 mins for some emulsions were definitely at the higher end of 'normal', depending on your enlarger's light source. As for what's going on with Rodinal chemically, it's going to have a very low buffer capacity at those dilutions & be prone to aerial oxidation.

 

[Juan Valdenebro]

Has anyone a link to any article or text about adding Na2CO3 to D-76 or Microphen, to get bigger sharper grain?
I couldn't find a word on it...
Thanks.

 

[Pixophrenic]

Has anyone a link to any article or text about adding Na2CO3 to D-76 or Microphen, to get bigger sharper grain?
I couldn't find a word on it...
Thanks.

No wonder, as this is a hack. Making a variant of a developer that is known for its relatively small grain on 400 films would defeat its original purpose. However, Microphen is still a phenidone-hydroquione developer, and at higher pH it will give a big sharp grain if diluted and supplemented with alkali.

 

[Juan Valdenebro]

No wonder, as this is a hack. Making a variant of a developer that is known for its relatively small grain on 400 films would defeat its original purpose. However, Microphen is still a phenidone-hydroquione developer, and at higher pH it will give a big sharp grain if diluted and supplemented with alkali.

Oh yes, sure it makes sense... I was just thinking -precisely- this may be common, so someone must have written something to give a general view on the subject, pros and cons with a few developers, good and bad films for it, etc...
I'll try it... Could work tonally too... And I'll do the Dektol test and compare... And in the case of adding Na2CO3, I'll compare D-76 and Microphen: we only know what we do. Thanks.

 

[Juan Valdenebro]

There's a post by David Lyga stating the same: adding 2g/l sodium carbonate to D-76 (working solution too)... He talks about 1+4 instead of 1+1, though...
Maybe for sun?
Anguishing shouldering for overcast expansion I guess, and times close to eternity...
I'll go for a 1+1.5 using 240ml...
A question to Chemists:
Having 600ml of working solution (not one liter), would you consider too much adding 2 grams of Sodium Carbonate?

 

[Alan Johnson]

You would need to dilute D-76 1+4 to largely remove the solvent effect of sulfite and get sharpest grain.
5 g/L sodium carbonate should give a pH around 11.6
If by "normal tonality" you mean that with D-76 1+0, it is not possible to comply with this requirement in the original post by this simple means of raising pH.
If "normal tonality" of Beutler is acceptable then it should be possible to get close by adding carbonate to D-76.

 

[Juan Valdenebro]

Well, then I'll need to lower my dilution beyond 1+1.5... Thanks

 

[Blythenti]

Depends on the film, but look up acceptable CIs at the higher temperature ranges.

 

[radiant]

I shot two rolls of Fomapan 400 at ISO 160 and overdeveloped in Rodinal 1+25 for 7 minutes with 30 second agitation sequence.

No specific big grain, I have seen bigger in Delta 3200. But hey, the negatives are really dense compared to souping at Xtol. Similarly dense than Tmax 400 at Xtol. Just by looking on light table.

I have some digital versions of the negatives but I'm not going to post those here not to cause any allergic reactions

 

[radiant]

Here is one print from my tests.

Close up:

What do you think of the grain?

 

[alanrockwood]

I wonder if something like the following might work. First expose and develop the negative normally. Then apply some kind of reducer, like Farmer's reducer, to dissolve some of the silver. Then increase the density using some kind of toner, perhaps selenium toner. The theory (untested as far as I know) would be that the reducer would eliminate the small grains, and then the toner would plate out on the what is left (large grains) making them bigger while bringing the density back into a normal range.

I am pretty sure that there could be some kind of contrast control issues that might raise their ugly heads using this method, but who knows? Maybe this method could work.

 

[Juan Valdenebro]

Here is one print from my tests.

View attachment 255218

Close up:

View attachment 255219

What do you think of the grain?

That's great!

 

[radiant]

I shot two rolls of Fomapan 400 at ISO 160 and overdeveloped in Rodinal 1+25 for 7 minutes with 30 second agitation sequence.

Yesterdays printing session with the negatives described above revealed that this method doesn't guarantee that ALL frames could be printed with grade 4-5. Actually the frames were pretty correctly exposed in general. The density was thick, maybe 2-3 stops denser than for example Tmax400 at Xtol.

So thinking in loud here:
- By increasing exposure I added details to the shadows and by that added more density in the shadows (negative bright areas).
- By increasing development time I increased highlight density (blackness in neg) and increased grain

Result: Increased overall density without radical incrase to the contrast. As shadows gain density slower than highlights, I increased the contrast a bit? Correct if I'm totally wrong. Without increased exposure time (while increasing development time) I would probably just add more contrast?

To get more "flatter" negatives (to be able to use grades 4-5) I should probably use the "pull" technique but that would mean less development time and maybe less grain? Or should I keep the development time same and increase the film exposure even more? I was exposing Foma 400 at 160.

 

[Pixophrenic]

Well, then I'll need to lower my dilution beyond 1+1.5... Thanks

Whatever dilution you decide to use, you need to determine the new development time for box speed. For example, D-76 1:1 plus 2 g/L soda would develop a 400 ASA film in 5-6 minutes instead of the suggested 11-12.

 

[Juan Valdenebro]

Whatever dilution you decide to use, you need to determine the new development time for box speed. For example, D-76 1:1 plus 2 g/L soda would develop a 400 ASA film in 5-6 minutes instead of the suggested 11-12.

It's been fun, and you're right: adding Na2CO3 is like giving development a new empty highway... Everything happens quickly.