how long has your fixer lasted?

2F/2F · May 27, 2011

It should last until your clearing test gives you a time that is twice the original clearing time. Supposedly oxidization is a problem if it sits, but I haven't noticed any loss of life from leaving it sitting in a nearly-full jar for very long periods of time. But I am very diligent about clip testing before each batch, which is what I would recommend as well. I also use two bath fixing for films. I process the film for half the decided-upon time in the older batch, and then in the newer batch for the second half (with a one minute rinse in between the two baths).

OTOH, I find that paper fixer goes pretty quickly. In a "serious" long printing session, I usually need to change it at least once. I use 2L of chemicals in each tray when printing.

I use Kodak Flexicolor Fixer for most of my film and paper, and TF-5 with PMK developer and Efke/Adox thick-emulsion films.

Jim Noel · May 27, 2011

Fixer is the cheapest chemical we use, and therefore the dheapest part of the processing equation. It is foolish to try to stretch its use. Everything may look OK when you finish processing, but what will it look like in 10 or 20 years?

jm94 · May 27, 2011

i found a print darkens when unfixed and exposed to the light (after being stopped), and i do the clearing test with my fixer. as i mentioned for anything mission critical i use a fresh batch. but for "fun" stuff, i use the old stuff (this is an experiment, to see how long the fixer lasts, the pH after my printing session earlier has risen (i think the buffer was shot) (after i made this post), and the fixing time has now tripled (did so around and after the 15th print, so it is, truely, exhausted. R.I.P! was a sudden failure, i was using fresh stop. i did the usual clearing test before, and after the session (about 20 b/w prints 3.5x5). i refixed the lot with fresh. for now, the fixer has been put into my big container for old fixer to try and recover the silver at a later date. the silver i can see around the container (was a pain to wash from a zoom bottle, i was careful to pour the specks of it back into the big container).

so that is what RXN fix will yield at its best, this was an experiment to push it as far as it would go.

what i don't understand is how can a print fade when improperly fixed? i thought the fixer only removes all silver halide, not the silver itself, or does exhausted fixer leave other crud there? or does it leave just enough silver halide left to start chemical reactions going?
p.s my fixing time for paper was not 5 minutes, that applied to film. for paper roughly 20 - 30 seconds i do as a rule. as of failing, it took instead of the usual 15 seconds to clear, around 45 seconds to clear.

MattKing · May 27, 2011

No offence jm94, but there is so much wrong with what you are doing!

A clearing test doesn't work for paper. It only works for film or other transparent material.

A clearing test only tests one of the two issues relevant to fixer capacity. It doesn't test for silver saturation.

20 - 30 seconds is way too short - none of your prints are properly fixed.

Fixer does two things - it converts the exposed and developed silver halides to a more permanent substance that adheres to the paper. It also converts the unexposed silver halides to silver in a form that is less permanent and susceptible to being washed away. If the fixer has lost it's chemical activity due to use, or is saturated with too much of the silver that is to be washed away, it cannot do both of its jobs properly. If fixer isn't given enough time to do its jobs, it also cannot do both of its jobs properly.

RalphLambrecht · May 28, 2011

jm94
Matt is right, you really need to reconsider your processes. Underfixing is probably the most common processing error made. Underwashing is a distant second. Doubling the clearing time is a useful estimate for film, 2-bath fixing is much better. For paper, do a fixing-time test (see attached) redeveloped in paper developer. Paper fixing for less than 60s is in danger of not being uniform. 20-30s is not even enough to agitate the print properly. Why the rush? Who is chasing you?

Paul and Jim
Thanks for the voice of reason.

Squeezing the last possible action out of a fixer is simply penny-wise and pound-foolish.

pentaxuser · May 28, 2011

Ralph have you forgotten the attachment? I have taken to using your two bath paper fixing in my Nova Quad and while I have not tested its longevity it does seem to prolong the same volume of fixer and must give a safety margin that one bath doesn't.

I should add that the Ilford text on its fixer does say that 30 secs for paper at film strength fixer(1+4) is sufficient.

pentaxuser

RalphLambrecht · May 28, 2011

pentaxuser said:
... I should add that the Ilford text on its fixer does say that 30 secs for paper at film strength fixer(1+4) is sufficient. ...

The best strategy is to fix strong and short, rather than weak and long. However, 30s is not enough to get the paper into the fixer, properly agitate and out of the fixer. More importantly, I don't understand why we are aiming to get a 30s time advantage. Fixing for 60s minimum is a sound strategy will no ill effects. Two-bath fixing is best, of course.

Remember that many Ilford's recommendations were aimed at rapid machine processing. The 60s development suggestion comes from this there too. Dmax is not always reached in 60s. 120s is the better strategy despite the Ilford text.

Here is the missing attachment:

jm94 · May 28, 2011

to mattking and ralph, i did not know that fixers role is to also to help bind the developed silver to the paper/base! i will defintely give 2 bath fixing a try, as fixer is dirt cheap. i didnt realize it was also to bond the silver to the base/paper! will only ever follow the manufacturer's specifications on the bottle. this was merely to see "how long" the chemical could fix. it is £8 for a 1L bottle of rollei fix. i picked up some extra trays not too long ago so i will do 2 bath fixing, at 1 minute each for paper, 5 minutes a piece for film. now i know the full role of fixer, will take more care with that step. as for washing, i wash for several minutes in 2 seperate baths of warm water, then do a final rinse under running water, then dry

thanks again for your advice; learn something new every day

wogster · May 28, 2011

jm94 said:
i found a print darkens when unfixed and exposed to the light (after being stopped), and i do the clearing test with my fixer. as i mentioned for anything mission critical i use a fresh batch. but for "fun" stuff, i use the old stuff (this is an experiment, to see how long the fixer lasts, the pH after my printing session earlier has risen (i think the buffer was shot) (after i made this post), and the fixing time has now tripled (did so around and after the 15th print, so it is, truely, exhausted. R.I.P! was a sudden failure, i was using fresh stop. i did the usual clearing test before, and after the session (about 20 b/w prints 3.5x5). i refixed the lot with fresh. for now, the fixer has been put into my big container for old fixer to try and recover the silver at a later date. the silver i can see around the container (was a pain to wash from a zoom bottle, i was careful to pour the specks of it back into the big container).

so that is what RXN fix will yield at its best, this was an experiment to push it as far as it would go.

what i don't understand is how can a print fade when improperly fixed? i thought the fixer only removes all silver halide, not the silver itself, or does exhausted fixer leave other crud there? or does it leave just enough silver halide left to start chemical reactions going?
p.s my fixing time for paper was not 5 minutes, that applied to film. for paper roughly 20 - 30 seconds i do as a rule. as of failing, it took instead of the usual 15 seconds to clear, around 45 seconds to clear.

if you look for instructions on development time for film, it's recommended not to go shorter then 5 minutes, often if the time would be shorter, you change the dilution to get a longer time. The same applies to fixing, for paper in trays, you don't really want to go shorter then 1 minute, to give the fixer a good opportunity to work over the whole sheet. You will often find different dilutions have different recommended times, so use a dilution that requires a longer time period.

Fading prints with exhausted fixer, I heard a theory on this, don't remember where, as the fixer gets more and more exhausted it actually gets harder to wash the chemicals out of the paper, eventually this gets to the point where you could wash it for a week and not remove it. This is why fixing is connected to archival results.

Fixer is cheap, I think you can buy a 50lb bag of Sodium Thiosulfate for something like $25....

RalphLambrecht · May 28, 2011

wogster said:
if you look for instructions on development time for film, it's recommended not to go shorter then 5 minutes, often if the time would be shorter, you change the dilution to get a longer time. ...

Yes, development times shorter than 4-5 minutes can result in uneven development.

wogster said:
... The same applies to fixing, for paper in trays, you don't really want to go shorter then 1 minute, to give the fixer a good opportunity to work over the whole sheet. ...

Exactly!

wogster said:
... You will often find different dilutions have different recommended times, so use a dilution that requires a longer time period. ...

Don't dilute fixer. Use two-bath fixing at film strength for 1-2 minutes for FB paper!

wogster said:
... Fading prints with exhausted fixer, I heard a theory on this, don't remember where, as the fixer gets more and more exhausted it actually gets harder to wash the chemicals out of the paper, eventually this gets to the point where you could wash it for a week and not remove it. This is why fixing is connected to archival results. ...

Correct!

During fixing, the residual silver halide is dissolved by thiosulfate without damaging the metallic silver image. The first fixing bath does most of the work but becomes increasingly contaminated by the soluble silver thiosulfate and its complexes. Soon, the entire chain of complex chemical reactions cannot be completed successfully, and the capacity limit of the first fixing bath is reached. A fresh second bath ensures that all remaining silver halides and silver thiosulfate complexes are dissolved. An intermediate rinse is optional, but it protects the second bath from contamination. Fixing time must be long enough to render all residual silver halides soluble, but not so long as to allow the fixer and its by-products to permeate the paper fibers; the former being far more important than the latter. Conduct a test to determine the optimum fixing time for any paper/fixer combination.

wootsk · May 28, 2011

I don't reuse my chemical, I use only 80 ml each time on 2 sheet of film (4*5), that's 16ml fixer, 64ml water. So on such estimation, 1L of fixer can develop up to around 125 sheets of 4*5 B&W.

wogster · May 28, 2011

RalphLambrecht said:
Don't dilute fixer. Use two-bath fixing at film strength for 1-2 minutes for FB paper!

Some fixers like Ilford Hypam, will recommend 1 time for 1+4 and another time for 1+9. If the time at 1+4 is too short, then use the 1+9 time.

RalphLambrecht said:
Conduct a test to determine the optimum fixing time for any paper/fixer combination.

How do you test time for fixing paper????

RalphLambrecht · May 29, 2011

wogster said:
Some fixers like Ilford Hypam, will recommend 1 time for 1+4 and another time for 1+9. If the time at 1+4 is too short, then use the 1+9 time. ...

Ilford says 1+4 is for film and 1+9 for paper. Ignore the paper recommendation and use it two-bath 1+4 for FB paper as well. This will give you fast and strong fixing, which removed all residual silver halide without giving the fixer a change to creep into the fibers. Washing will be a lot easier too this way, and fixer consumption is the same, because weak fixer dissolves less halide than strong fixer.

wogster said:
... How do you test time for fixing paper????

I posted the test result in post #32 already, but without some text, it wasn't worth much. In brief, fix a strip of undeveloped paper for 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30 and so on seconds. Rinse it off and try to develop it in normal paper developer. Any residual halide will be exposed (because you don't do the test in the dark) and developed. The first clean strip indicated proper fixing. Double or triple that time for safety (you are not always using fresh fixer) and you'll get to a minimum fixing time.

Alternatively, you can conduct the test with selenium or sulfide toners instead of developer, but I find the developer to be more telling than toners. In any case, make sure not to fix for less than 1 minute regardless of what the test result is, due to agitation and handling reasons.

wogster · May 29, 2011

RalphLambrecht said:
Ilford says 1+4 is for film and 1+9 for paper. Ignore the paper recommendation and use it two-bath 1+4 for FB paper as well. This will give you fast and strong fixing, which removed all residual silver halide without giving the fixer a change to creep into the fibers. Washing will be a lot easier too this way, and fixer consumption is the same, because weak fixer dissolves less halide than strong fixer.

I know about the 1+4 and 1+9 being respectfully for film and paper, but they give paper fixing times for both, probably because of commercial machine processing, where times in chemicals need to be as short as possible.

So, for FB paper where the fixing time in 1+4 would be about 2 minutes, then 1 minute in each bath makes a lot of sense, for RC paper it doesn't, there you need 1+9 just to get a long enough recommended fixing time for a single bath.

RalphLambrecht · May 29, 2011

You are right, RC paper fixes very quickly. I don't use it for work that will be framed and hung or sold, only for some trials or in workshops to get the point across. Still, I fix RC in 1+4 as well, but mainly to avoid the darkroom complexity of having two different fixing solutions to deal with.

wogster · May 30, 2011

RalphLambrecht said:
You are right, RC paper fixes very quickly. I don't use it for work that will be framed and hung or sold, only for some trials or in workshops to get the point across. Still, I fix RC in 1+4 as well, but mainly to avoid the darkroom complexity of having two different fixing solutions to deal with.

Not to start another flame war, but I never bought the FB is better argument, in fact I have two prints hanging side by side on the wall, one on FB, the other on RC paper, they have been there under the same conditions for nearly 30 years, I forget which is which now, would have to unmount them and check the back.

Luseboy · May 30, 2011

wogster said:
Not to start another flame war, but I never bought the FB is better argument, in fact I have two prints hanging side by side on the wall, one on FB, the other on RC paper, they have been there under the same conditions for nearly 30 years, I forget which is which now, would have to unmount them and check the back.

I've never bought that it's "better" but personally I prefer it. There's something to having the real paper, it's a little more romantic, and I've found that the emulsions are almost always better on a fiber paper, and I can't decide if it's the emulsion itself, some sort of coating that they use, the thickness of the emulsion, or just how the emulsion sits on the fiber paper. Either way, I far prefer using fiber paper for the finished prints. That's not to say that I won't make a finished print onto RC, but fiber is just much nicer in my opinion.
Just another opinion, everyone's got them.
-Austin

RalphLambrecht · May 30, 2011

wogster said:
Not to start another flame war, but I never bought the FB is better argument, in fact I have two prints hanging side by side on the wall, one on FB, the other on RC paper, they have been there under the same conditions for nearly 30 years, I forget which is which now, would have to unmount them and check the back.

We can discuss 'better', because that depends on what you're after, but we cannot discuss 'different', because they so obviously are. This is especially true for 30-year-old RC. Nevertheless, if you cannot see the difference, it's not worth worrying about it, because you won't be able to appreciate the difference.

Thomas Bertilsson · May 30, 2011

About fixer: I use one fixer batch for film, and another for paper.

Film: I use it until it take longer than 30 seconds to clear a film strip. Then I chuck it and mix fresh. Ilford Hypam 1+4 concentration. To mix the 2l working solution I spend 400ml.

Paper: Two bath system. Both mixed at 1+9 with water. Fiber paper (all I use) gets a 2 minute bath in each. First fixer is a 1 gallon batch, and second fixer is 1/2 gallon batch. At the end of each printing session I pour the 2nd fixer batch into the 1st fixer storage container, and top up with what's left in the try of Fixer 1. Then I mix fresh 2nd fixer next time I print. Ilford Hypam. So I end up using 200ml concentrate each printing session.

I would rather spend a bit more fixer and make sure my prints and negatives are well fixed, rather than taking a chance and finding out down the road that something went wrong. Fixer is so inexpensive compared to film and paper. I buy a 5L jug of it every few months.

RalphLambrecht · May 30, 2011

Thomas

So, why not try 1+4 two-bath fixing for a minute each? That will be easier to wash out of the fibers.

Thomas Bertilsson · May 30, 2011

RalphLambrecht said:
Thomas

So, why not try 1+4 two-bath fixing for a minute each? That will be easier to wash out of the fibers.

Good point. I might try that some time, Ralph.

wogster · May 30, 2011

RalphLambrecht said:
We can discuss 'better', because that depends on what you're after, but we cannot discuss 'different', because they so obviously are. This is especially true for 30-year-old RC. Nevertheless, if you cannot see the difference, it's not worth worrying about it, because you won't be able to appreciate the difference.

Like I said, I have two prints hanging side by side on a wall, and one is fiber and one is RC and after nearly 30 years, it's tough to figure out which is which, and they were both printed by me, using the same equipment, within a month of each other they are 4x5's so maybe the difference is in larger sizes, never printed anything larger then 4x5 on fibre because I had too much trouble getting them flat without a press and could never afford one.

RalphLambrecht · May 30, 2011

wogster said:
Like I said, I have two prints hanging side by side on a wall, and one is fiber and one is RC and after nearly 30 years, it's tough to figure out which is which, and they were both printed by me, using the same equipment, within a month of each other they are 4x5's so maybe the difference is in larger sizes, never printed anything larger then 4x5 on fibre because I had too much trouble getting them flat without a press and could never afford one.

Wow, that's a long sentence! Like I said, if you can't appreciate the difference, I wouldn't worry about it. I see a difference, and that difference is well worth the trouble to me.

bwrules · May 30, 2011

I actually really like the look of glossy RC (if not prefer it to FB), but am worried about its archival stability. No one knows for sure if it will last as long as a properly done FB.

brian steinberger · May 30, 2011

RalphLambrecht said:
Thomas

So, why not try 1+4 two-bath fixing for a minute each? That will be easier to wash out of the fibers.

Ralph, I thought the idea was to fix for a minute total at film strength (1+4). So wouldn't it be 30 seconds in each bath?

how long has your fixer lasted?

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