How long does paper last? How can i tell if its good?

[redstarjedi]

I know this is a question with many answers, and it's all over the internet. But how long is black and white photo paper good for?

I feel like i hit the jackpot. I scored hundreds and hundreds of sheets of paper from a craigslist ad for only $60. It's mixed sizes and brands, mostly arista, foma and ilford, fiber, RC and VC. I was assured by the seller that they should all work, since they were tested, and he used some for personal work. The story is that a freestyle employee (whom i bought this from) was tasked with testing each batch of paper by processing one sheet from one box. If that sheet was good then, the entire factory order was good since they are cut from master rolls. Problem is that you can't sell an opened box of paper, so he got to keep them all! it got to be too much so he ended up selling it on los angeles craigslist. I asked how old are they and he said it's mixed and that he lost track but no older than 2014. One box says purchased december 2014, and another july 2015. He explained that arista is really just foma, and that the paper really isn't aged enough to matter. He also said that he wants to see examples, and that if anything is fogged ect ect to visit him at his office at freestyle in hollywood and he'd get me other testers for free!

I rent space at a darkroom in los angeles, and time is money so i wonder what is a good and fast way to test one sheet from each pack. There are about 30+ packs. I figure there are two choices:

A. Take a negative that i have printed before on ilford paper that i bought fresh, print it once more with a single sheet from each pack and compare. I have one in mind a well balanced low contrast negative.
B. just expose each sheet to direct light from the enlarger head, and then process and compare
C. Well, APUG is there even a third option? I noticed that there are serial numbers on each pack of ilford, arista, and foma, i couldn't find the same on the adox box.

 

[redstarjedi]

Also despite him saying it can't be older than 2014. What if it is? If he lost track i suspect it could be as older than what he is saying.

 

[Mainecoonmaniac]

Buying old paper isn't for everyone. If you're an artist type and willing to tone and bleach your prints, it can be a bargain. I bought a 200+ sheet box of Ilford MG FB for cheap. When I ran a test on first sheet, I had a smile on my face. The ebay seller sold it "as is". I would not buy expired paper if it costs too much. There are some real bargains on silver gelatin paper that's not made anymore. I still see plenty Agfa and Kodak paper on Ebay.

 

[gone]

I'm sure there are lots of ways to do this, but I would just do a test strip and then make a print and see what you got, just like you would do w/ any paper to see what the print looks best at.

 

[revdoc]

In my experience, old paper usually just fogs, so a simple test is to develop and fix a sheet from each box to see whether the result is white or not. White paper? Still good. Grey paper? No good. You don't need a darkroom, just a dark room

 

[bdial]

As Revdoc says, testing for fogging would be the first thing to check. To add a little on what he said, develop and fix a sheet, and only fix another one, wash and dry both then compare. If they match you're good to go, if not, then you have some decisions to make.
If there is slight fogging, adding a restrainer like benzenetriol to the developer may help.

 

[Ko.Fe.]

2014 is old? Boo-ha-ha!
I'm printing on FB which is 30-40 years old. Grade 2 is great for liths, 3 is smooth in contrast and 4 gives high contrast. Agfa, Ilford made.
I also printed on at least five years old RC. Maybe some little fog or less contrast. Modern RC like Ilford MG and Agfa made in EU appears to be more critical for safelight. It took some time to figure it out....

 

[pentaxuser]

Taking what you were told at face value then I'd say you have got a bargain. If the paper is genuinely not older than 2104 it should be as good as new. You might want to try a bit of a sheet for age fogging by cutting it in two. In total darkness(ideally) but a safelight which is known to be safe is fine, develop and fix one piece then just fix one piece. If the developed and fixed piece is "greyer" than the just fixed piece there is some age fogging

If there is age-fogging then all is not lost. You can add benzotriazole to the developer and this can clear the age-fog is it isn't too bad.

Let us know what you find

pentaxuser

 

[M Carter]

What he said! test for fogging (will show the max white the paper is capable of) and expose to light and develop to see how black it will go.

If you have a fogged pack, tape the test strip to the box and you'll know. Fogged paper can be good for lith, and for making paper masks and so on. Use it for setting up your easel; if you need to rotate a neg to have elements in square (like you shot a building handheld and enlarged it looks a bit "leaning") you can mark a sheet up with a t-square and use it for framing and focusing.

I judge used paper by "stops fogged" - I just hold my grayscale up to the dried strip. Even up to 2 stops or so, many papers will lith print perfectly - and that's about all I do. So if your paper is fogged, give me a shout!

 

[redstarjedi]

As Revdoc says, testing for fogging would be the first thing to check. To add a little on what he said, develop and fix a sheet, and only fix another one, wash and dry both then compare. If they match you're good to go, if not, then you have some decisions to make.
If there is slight fogging, adding a restrainer like benzenetriol to the developer may help.

Ok, so expose one to light, develop and fix as normal. But ONLY fix and DO NOT develop the other one and compare? I assume you want me to check total white?

 

[winger]

Ok, so expose one to light, develop and fix as normal. But ONLY fix and DO NOT develop the other one and compare? I assume you want me to check total white?

I'm fairly sure he doesn't intend there to be light. Piece #1 - develop, stop, fix. Piece #2 - fix only. Wash and dry, then compare.

And I've been using up some paper I opened in '06 (Ilford MGFB matte) and it's been fine. I obviously don't use matte finish fiber often 'cause the glossy box is MUCH more recent.

 

[kreeger]

Sounds like you scored a good deal, enjoy.

So, I have been buying up old stocks of the various Ilford, Kodak, Agfa and Zone VI Studios fiber base paper I like to use the last 15 years.

Here is what I can say are the "facts" based on my actual work with it, the last 4 months of printing.

Old paper eventually loses contrast, even if the paper doesn't look fogged. Adding a Benzotriazole solution, such as Photographer's Formulary sells, can help fogging and keep your whites white... but does little for paper contrast, no matter which developer you throw at it.

RC paper unless it's been near a heater should be pretty age resistant from fog.

All the Kodak PolyMax Fine Art VC FB, the Agfa MCC 111, Ilford MGIV FB warmtone I have, made since 2000 - 2010 that I test and use, has been just fine.
I think the PolyMax Fine Art VC FB paper was good stuff and Kodak was really trying near the end. I will buy more if I can find it.

Zone VI Studios - The Brilliant VCII is really good. Mid to late 90's Zone VI Brilliant graded, unopened and frozen all it's life isn't as good.
The Grade 2 is sadly just lifeless when it comes to contrast. The Grade 3 is better and should be acceptable .
The newer Brilliant VCIII which I purchased new from Calumet and stored it frozen, shows various patterns of mottling in the middle tones which varies from sheet to sheet unfortunately.

Ultimately paper is like an old car battery, when it won't hold a charge, it's not worth the risk.

Best of luck with your major paper haul RedStar!

 

[Doremus Scudder]

Ok, so expose one to light, develop and fix as normal. But ONLY fix and DO NOT develop the other one and compare? I assume you want me to check total white?

No, not exactly. You should do this test on unexposed paper! You are comparing unexposed whites. If you have not done a safelight test, do this test in total darkness. Do a safelight test as described here: http://www.kodak.com/global/en/consumer/products/pdf/k4.pdf so you don't fog your paper with an "unsafe" safelight.

Paper that is slightly fogged can be dealt with in a couple of ways. The first is to use an restrainer like potassium bromide or benzotriazole additive to the developer. It's easy to use benzotriazole is as a 1% solution and potassium bromide as a 10% solution (weight of chemical to amount of water in grams/milliliters). These relative concentrations produce a similar restraining action. Add the restrainer to the developer at the rate of 2-3 ml per liter to start with and do the test again. If there is still fog, increase the amount of restrainer by similar amounts (with tests between) till the fog is under control. If you have to add more than about 25 ml/liter, then the paper is probably unusable or you'll have to use bleaching as well.

Bleaching is the second method. I prefer a potassium ferricyanide and potassium bromide rehalogenating bleach treating fogged paper because it acts on the light areas more than the darker. Incorporate this as a step in your processing after the fix and a good rinse since it changes print tonalities a bit and you should base exposure on how much you need to bleach. Make a dilute bleaching solution of about 1% ferricyanide/bromide. I do this by adding 10ml 10% ferricyanide solution and 30ml 3.4% potassium bromide solution to 1 liter water since I have the stock solutions on hand, you can also mix directly from the dry chemicals ( grams chemical per milliliter water to make a percent solution) This solution is a starting point and can be strengthened or weakened as needed. Make sure you rinse the print before bleaching so no fix is carried over. Immerse the wet, rinsed print into the solution and start the clock. Keep an unbleached print handy for comparison. I’ve removed moderate fog on prints in 2-3 mintutes with this solution. Transfer the print to a running water rinse tray just before the desired amount of bleaching is reached. The bleaching will continue a bit in the water. You can repeat this step if needed. IMPORTANT: The print now needs to be fixed to remove the silver bromide produced by the bleach. Give it a full-time fix.

Hope this helps,

Doremus

 

[ic-racer]

In the dark, dip on-half in developer for the usual time. Fix the whole thing.

 

[redstarjedi]

Thank you everyone, i can always count on this community to help! In a few weeks i'm going to rent a few hours to test out all of these packs. I'd be thrilled if even only half the paper was good.

 

[Ian Grant]

Simon Galley stated on this site that Ilford papers should show no changes in at least 7 years as long as they are reasonably well stored. My experience is most papers will last very considerably longer. It's warm-tone papers that deteriorate fastest particularly since Cadmium had to be removed from them in the late 1980's.

I had some boxes of early 1960's Kodak Bromide and Bromesko papers and tested them, there was no fogging, just a slight speed loss and corresponding drop in contrast. They all printed well with good Dmax and tonal range.

At the moment I'm printing on some Kodak Polymax II RC that's probably 20 years old, I was given it by a lab that was downsizing 12 years ago, it prints perfectly contrast matches modern fresh paper. I've also got some 1977 Ilfospeed Gd 3 and that prints OK. However the last of my Record Rapid was useless, as was some Oriental warm tone paper.

So I doubt you'll have any problems

Ian

 

[Doremus Scudder]

Oops! I received a PM pointing out that I had made a mistake in the bleach dilution in my post above. Since I can't edit it at this point, please be aware that in the third paragraph where I stated, "Make a dilute bleaching solution of about 1% ferricyanide/bromide," that I left out a decimal point. It should read "0.1% solution" instead of "1% solution." The basic starting point is 1g ferricyanide and 1g bromide per liter, which I mix from stock solutions (I got that part right, anyway). Sorry for any confusion.

Note that this is a very weak bleach dilution to clear fogged paper and just a starting point. A stronger bleach may be needed. I do use about a stronger solution as a starting dilution for other types of print bleaching.

Doremus

 

[Mark Tate]

I would guess it is all good paper still, it really does last a long time I find but that can depend on a few environmental factors and how it was stored. Heat is the fastest way to kill it, I left a fresh box in my car once on a very hot day for just a few hours, that was bad and I could barley get an image from it, 70 deg C does not do anything much good though I guess, I was just glad I did not have film as well.
I have used 20 year old Ilford RC that had been refrigerated all its life and could not tell it from fresh paper apart from it needing a bit more time to develop.
There are people out there who would kill for some paper from the 50s and they go hunting for it.

Sounds like you got a good score anyway, certainly worth jumping on.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

Very old papers that contained heavy metals such as cadmium had the reputation of lasting a long time as in decades. Newer papers that do not contain heavy metals have a much shorter usable lifetime perhaps a few years if properly stored. It all depends on the emulsion design. You really have to test.

 

[Mark Tate]

Very old papers that contained heavy metals such as cadmium had the reputation of lasting a long time as in decades. Newer papers that do not contain heavy metals have a much shorter usable lifetime perhaps a few years if properly stored. It all depends on the emulsion design. You really have to test.

Silver is a heavy metal and it keeps way longer than just a few years, all B&W papers are made with Silver. Silver is a Nobel metal and has a half life far exceeding that of Cadmium. I have used 20 and 30 year old Ilford RC paper with no issues.

 

[newcan1]

I bought a ton of Kodabrome RC paper dated 1993, and I have been testing it extensively. Grades 4 and 5 have dropped in contrast to Grade 3, and there is varying base fog among the grades. For grades 1-3, which accounts for half the quantity I purchased, I have found that using no restrainer but a ferri bleach after fixing works best. I adjusted bleach dilution so that the base fog would be removed in approx. 2 minutes of bleaching. I made a print to compare with a print of the same negative on fresh paper, and in many ways the Kodabrome print looks better. There is a good chance I will be able to use all of this paper, which for 10 cents on the dollar, and 23 years old, is an outstanding result.

 

[andrewf]

Yeah, I bought some paper off ebay a while back but had to pop away for a year or so so never really got to test it. After printing on it this week, I notice that the boarders were gray So a test of the paper shows it has uniform fogging across the whole page.

So I'm not sure what the cause is. Exposure to light, age or xrays. Who knows. I will need to do more testing of various sheets in the pack to be sure. Such a bummer though!

 

[Kevin Caulfield]

Yeah, I bought some paper off ebay a while back but had to pop away for a year or so so never really got to test it. After printing on it this week, I notice that the boarders were gray So a test of the paper shows it has uniform fogging across the whole page.

So I'm not sure what the cause is. Exposure to light, age or xrays. Who knows. I will need to do more testing of various sheets in the pack to be sure. Such a bummer though!

Who knows. You bought it a while ago, popped away for a year or so and now wonder if it could be fogged? Yes, could be.

 

[andrewf]

Well, I was curious so went and had a look at some old prints I made when i first got it. There is grayness there too. I just never noticed it before. So it looks like it arrived fogged. Still no closer to knowing what the root cause of this was but still a disappointment.

 

[removed account4]

i havne't bought new paper since about 2001 and i am also using paper
that was given to me before 1997 it is all good, but that is just me,
i am sure someone might try it and say " it is terrible"
the only way to see if paper is good is by trying it
and seeing if it works for you. you can always sell
it to someone who has a use for it even if it is old and of no use to you.