How Does One Get Started Processing C41 At Home?

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braxus

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I already have some 35mm and 120mm reels, plus Patterson tanks. And if I bought chemicals, it would be Kodaks new home C41 kits. Not sure if I'd need the 2.5L or 5L kits first of all.

Secondly how would you keep all the chemicals at the proper temps? And does every stage need its particular chemical to be warm, or just the developer?

How would you suggest I get started?
 

Anon Ymous

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The developer is the critical part and luckily it only takes 3:15. The rest of the process has more tolerance.
 

koraks

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How would you suggest I get started?


A plastic tub with a heater

That's how I started. A tub, a water heater and a thermometer. It worked OK. Back then, "sous vide" sticks were not yet a thing. Today, I'd just get one of those; the cheaper ones retail for something like 30 bucks and are perfectly fine for this.
 

Flighter

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Our hot water runs at 45°C so I just use the sink as a water bath, put my bottles of developer, bleach, fixer, stabiliser and wash water (I use the method devised by Kodak's G.I.P. Levenson and use the water collected from the dehumidifier) and by playing around with the hot and cold water get the bath and chemicals up to 38°C (my dial thermometer only has 1°C increments) and then off I go with the film in Patterson tanks. As Anon Ymous says, the developer is the one where the temperature is critical and if the temp of the bath and other chemicals drops slightly over the course of bleaching, washing and fixing it shouldn’t be an issue. As I'm not particularly colour sensitive and I scan rather than wet print the end result looks fine to me.

I use a similar method for ECN2, a big square bucket (of the type for rinsing a mop) which use to get the developer to 41°C and the sink for the other chemicals at 27°C.

It's good enough for a government job!
 

cerber0s

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Same here basically. I use the sink and a sous vide stick. Works great.
 

Film-Niko

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I already have some 35mm and 120mm reels, plus Patterson tanks. And if I bought chemicals, it would be Kodaks new home C41 kits.

The kits you are talking about are not "Kodaks" new home kits. They are produced by Photo Systems Inc.. Which have bought the right to use the Kodak brand name for their kits.
I think it is important to make that differentiation. Because I have meanwhile heard from several users of Photo Systems Inc. products that they've had quality problems.

Not sure if I'd need the 2.5L or 5L kits first of all.

Both is quite a lot for a beginner. I would recommend a 1L kit, for example from ADOX.

Secondly how would you keep all the chemicals at the proper temps?

Either a sous-vide or CineStill TCS water temperature controller in a water bath, or - perfect solution - a JOBO rotary processor ( I have a JOBO and love it).
 

loccdor

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Rather than use a water tub and heater I use 2-sink pair.

I put a stopper in 1 of the sinks and fill it up with hot water around 130-150 degrees F, with the developer and blix bottles inside, fully submerged. The stopper doesn't form a complete seal so the sink drains in about 5-10 minutes. As the sink starts to drain after 5 minutes or so I change the water temp to about 105 degrees F. I keep adding water of this temperature to the sink as necessary (if it gets too full I turn the faucet into the other, non-stoppered sink, where I am doing my pre-washes in the development tank, that way the water coming out of the faucet always stays at the measured temperature).

After around 5 more minutes I stick a thermometer into the developer and it's usually within a couple degrees of the 102F that I want. If it's close, I use a slight adjustment to the developing time. Otherwise, I soak it in the water for a few minutes more until it comes up to temp.

Then, I begin the development in the Paterson tank in the second sink. The blix temperature isn't as critical so once you start the development you can let the water bath first sink drain if you want.

It's the same for E-6, you just have one extra chemical bottle.

I don't believe it's that critical if you lose 1 or 2 degrees F or 1 degree C while the developer is in the tank. But if you want to maintain that temp too, you can stopper the sink you develop in and let that fill with water of the appropriate temperature as well. Doing pre-washes at 102F helps acclimate your Paterson tank anyway. The plastic tanks should be more insulative than metal for this purpose, I've never used metal tanks or reels.
 
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As noted above, the most critical temp is the developer. I started processing B/W film in 1954 using Nikor reels and tanks with the inversion method. That worked well.
Last year I found out Jobo tanks, rotated in a horizontal orientation (many rotation devices are available--depends on how much you want to spend), allow accurate and dependable agitation while using MUCH less chemistry. With a Jobo 2-series tank and 3 Jobo reels, you can process 6 rolls of 120 at a time, in 650ml of working solution. Omer, at CatLabs, knows the Jobo system completely, and he shares his expertise willingly. Just mention Jobo here, and you will find lots of enthusiastic folks who will answer virtually all your questions.
 

miha

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I'm using a NOVA 300W heater and an aquarium pump to circulate the water around the bottles. A precise thermometer is essential, with Paterson and Kaiser being popular brands for color thermometers.

1726321071384.png
 
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Andrew O'Neill

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I will be doing colour developing for the first time. I'm just waiting for collapsible storage bags to arrive. That'll give me a bit of time to go outside and expose a roll of the Pheonix 120. As far as keeping the developer at temp via Sous Vide heater.
 

brian steinberger

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I’m getting ready to try C-41 as well. Are metal tanks/reels seen as more problematic with keeping temp? I would think it would be better than plastic. I use all metal for black and white and would not want to necessarily change.
 
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In my experience, as long as your tanks are in a water bath of the correct temperature, stainless steel reels and tanks are excellent. They conduct the energy of the heated water quickly to the chemistry inside. Keeping the temperature of your developer is critical. In our lab (we had 18 employees), I designed a temp control system to keep the E-6 and C-41 chemistry at 38.0° C within one-quarter degree. Today you don't need the two 100-gallon water heaters we needed to accomplish that tolerance. Our film was always gorgeous, and being somewhat obsessive didn't hurt. 😉
 

Sirius Glass

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I started with plastic tubs to develop Ektachrome in the 1960's and never had a problem. Then I stopped both black & white and color processing for decades because I did not have the facilities to do any processing. In 2010 I bought a Jobo Processor which I use for both color and black & white film processing.

Color film processing is slightly more complicated than black & white film processing mainly because there are more chemicals and steps. Temperature stabilization does not really making it that much harder.
 
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braxus

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Ok. I use Patterson tanks as mentioned. I suppose a large tub filled with water and the

Sous Vide, Wancle Sous Vide Cooker 1100W IPX7 .​


I would just sit the jugs with chemicals in the water bath to heat up. If I went with a 2.5L kit, how many rolls do you get out of that? Is the solution diluted from the kit? Do you reuse the developer? Also what is the agitation process for C41? Do you just let it sit in the tank for 3.5 minutes?
 

koraks

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I suppose a large tub filled with water and the

Sous Vide, Wancle Sous Vide Cooker 1100W IPX7 .​


Good.
If I went with a 2.5L kit, how many rolls do you get out of that?

People usually get 6-20 rolls/liter from their C41 developer. Around 10 is a safe bet, so 25 rolls from 2.5L.
Is the solution diluted from the kit?

Mixing instructions are provided by the manufacturer. The 2.5L volume refers to the working stock dilution. The concentrates are smaller in volume; i.e. you add water.

Do you reuse the developer?

Some do, some don't. With rotary processing, you generally need a smaller volume and it becomes more feasible to use one shot. But most home users re-use their developer.

Also what is the agitation process for C41?

Continuous or at least very frequent. If you agitate 30 seconds at the beginning and then every 30 seconds or so, you should be OK. Don't go under this.

Do you just let it sit in the tank for 3.5 minutes?

C41 time is 3m15s so 3.25 minutes, not 3.5 - although the difference isn't too meaningful for all intents and purposes. And no, you don't let it just sit. Agitate!
 

Ian C

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Developer Temperature Test, Unheated Tank

C41 requires keeping the developer as close to the 100ºF/38ºC temperature as possible during the temperature-critical developing step. The remaining steps should be at the same temperature but are far less temperature critical. The same is true for processing E6 films.

Here is a simple experiment you should perform to get a good idea how this works. Use your developing tank with empty reels inside. Load the reels into the tank and fill with water at about 105ºF/40.6ºC or somewhat higher, cap the tank and allow it to sit for 2 minutes so that the tank and reels absorb heat from the water and come to a stable temperature.

In the meanwhile, prepare a liter dose of water at 100ºF/38ºC to simulate developer. Pour out the tempering water in the tank at the end of the warming period and add the 100ºF/38ºC water to the tank, install the lid and start a timer set to 3:15. Agitate occasionally to keep the temperature uniform to simulate developing.

At the end of the period, remove the lid from the tank and measure the temperature of the water. For a liquid-in-tube thermometer, start with the thermometer prewarmed to the approximate target temperature for faster registration. Depending on the room temperature, you might find that in the short time it has been in the preheated tank, that it has retained most of its original temperature.

If the temperature drop is quite small, then no compensation is required. But suppose that it drops from 100ºF to 98ºF. You could start with 101ºF that drops to 99ºF over the developing time. The average temperature over the developing period is 100ºF. The result should be approximately the same as if you had a constant 100ºF temperature for the entire 3:15 developing time.

If the room in which you do your developing is unusually cold, you might have to start at a higher temperature to compensate. By doing this experiment BEFORE you process your film at the room temperature you’re likely to use, you can get good results by preheating the tank loaded with exposed film in this manner and with minimal equipment.

By keeping notes of the experiments at various ambient temperatures, you can figure out the best starting temperature.

C41 Capacity

Tetenal and other makers used to include a temperature/time nomograph in the data sheets packed with each C41 kit (developer, blix, stabilizer). This was to compensate for probable temperature drop at various ambient temperatures. The older 1-liter Tetenal kits I used specified a capacity of 16 rolls per liter using the following developing step schedule at 100ºF/38ºC:

Rolls 1 – 4 at 3:15

Rolls 5 – 8 at 3:30

Rolls 9 – 12 at 3:45

Rolls 13 – 16 at 4:00

Then discard the exhausted chemicals.

Between processes, the developer and other chemicals are poured from the tank back into their respective storage bottles to form a uniform mixture with the remainder of the chemicals prior to processing the next batch of films.

This assumes waiting until you have 16 rolls of exposed film and will consume the entire capacity within a few days. C41 developer will begin to deteriorate once mixed. This proceeds slowly at first and accelerates with usage. If you don’t develop that much film, then you should scrap it much sooner, say, after processing 8 rolls.
 
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Chan Tran

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Back in the days I use a roaster oven something like this one
I turn the temperture control know all the way up so it's always on. Then I plug it in my own temperature controller which control the temperature much more accurately.
Todaya if I were to do the samething I would get one of those sous vide machines because they have good temperture controller and they has recirculation too.
Something like this

The main problem is to keep to temperature correctly when you pour the chemicals in the tank. It would cool down. But I still have access to places that does it the same day I wouldn't bother to do it. Even at $10 a roll I can't make my cost lower because doing so requires reusing the chemicals which I don't want to do. Also chemicals unused can't be kept for too long.
 
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braxus

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Some have said the Kodak branded C41 developer is one shot only, which make the use of it very uneconomical. 5 rolls of 120 and you're done. Maybe 7 or 8 rolls of 35mm.
 

koraks

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Some have said the Kodak branded C41 developer is one shot only

C41 developer is quite similar across the various brands. If you can reuse one, you can reuse the other. The main difference you're seeing is personal preferences/styles, not actual differences in the chemistry. So take it all with a grain of salt.
 

MattKing

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That and people are referencing the Kodak documentation which is written for users who needed and demanded very narrow tolerances with respect to colour and contrast - the sort of results that braxus would have expected in his previous life working in a photo lab :smile:.
 

Chan Tran

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That and people are referencing the Kodak documentation which is written for users who needed and demanded very narrow tolerances with respect to colour and contrast - the sort of results that braxus would have expected in his previous life working in a photo lab :smile:.

Yes and the lab can do it with much tighter tolerance and cheaper. There is no user control in developing C41 (unless you do push or pull which I wouldn't do). It's not like the printing stage when the user has a lot of controls and interpretation. So I don't want to do C41 myself. I was thinking about buying a processor like a Noritsu but I need enough volume to make it work. The smallest Noritsu processer need 15 rolls a day. Also when I used to run 100 rolls a day and every day I used 1 control strip it's OK. But a control strip for a few roll is getting too expensive.
 
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My lab owner days ended in 1980, and now I'm almost ready to process C-41 and E-6 at home. I will use Jobo tanks rotated at 50 RPM with one-shot developer. However, I need your opinions of starting with a 38° pre-soak (or whatever the correct term is). Our Pako dip-and-dunk machines did not have a pre-soak, but some folks say around 5 minutes of carefully-tempered water helps. Please share your recommendations.
 

Andrew O'Neill

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Ok. I use Patterson tanks as mentioned. I suppose a large tub filled with water and the

Sous Vide, Wancle Sous Vide Cooker 1100W IPX7 .​


I would just sit the jugs with chemicals in the water bath to heat up. If I went with a 2.5L kit, how many rolls do you get out of that? Is the solution diluted from the kit? Do you reuse the developer? Also what is the agitation process for C41? Do you just let it sit in the tank for 3.5 minutes?

Google user instruction. It explains time, temp, agitation.
 
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