Not at all. One viable approach is to simply place a shadow value and let the highlights fall where they may. You'll get contrasty negatives with contrasty scenes and flat negatives with flat scenes, but that gets taken care of by using the contrast controls available when printing (or in post).
The only dialing-in you have to do with this approach is to find a developing time that lets you print the contrastiest negs you have with a #00 filter or higher and the flattest negs you have with a #5 filter or lower. Once you've done that, this approach will work for all but the most extreme situations. It would be my preferred approach to using roll film, where scenes of many different subject luminance ranges are on one roll.
Modern films are really great at holding detail well into the "overexposure" range. Of course, if you use a retro film that shoulders out quickly, you might want to switch approaches.
However, this approach eliminates the whole visualization feature of the Zone System, which I find its most-useful attribute. Checking separation between different values (with and without filters) helps plan an expressive image. However, that really doesn't have much to do with deciding the actual exposure; a shadow value will suffice.
With the full-blown Zone System, one strives for negatives that all have a similar contrast range. That was more important in the days of graded papers and when one wanted to print on a single grade of paper. Still, there were, in the heyday of graded papers, five or sometimes six different contrast grades available. Many felt, however, that the middle grades of 2 and 3 yielded the best prints. With today's VC papers, you can get good prints with the full range of contrasts available.
Keep in mind, that the contrast control in the ZS is largely done with changing the development time, not by changing exposure; that was determined by placing the shadow value where you wanted it. If we no longer need to worry so much about getting the negative contrast tailored exactly for a particular grade of paper, then we are more free to just develop normally and deal with contrast in other ways. Of course, there are extreme situations where this approach won't work well and changing development time would yield a better image, but those instances are more rare. Experienced photographers will recognize these situations and deal with them accordingly. Otherwise, the more-simple expose fully, develop so that your negs will be printable approach works well.
Best,
Doremus
Doremus wrote:What happens if the ground is in shade making the shadow areas even darker? Setting the shadow value at 3 could blow out the highlights in the sky. ...
In order to know what development time to use, we can base our exposure on the shadows, but measure the highlights for exactly the reason you stated -- so we do not blow out the highlights with excessive development -- OR so that we know to give extra development if the highlights are not bright enough in the scene compared to the shadows to give good contrast to work with.Keep in mind, that the contrast control in the ZS is largely done with changing the development time, not by changing exposure; that was determined by placing the shadow value where you wanted it.
Not at all. One viable approach is to simply place a shadow value and let the highlights fall where they may. You'll get contrasty negatives with contrasty scenes and flat negatives with flat scenes, but that gets taken care of by using the contrast controls available when printing (or in post).
The only dialing-in you have to do with this approach is to find a developing time that lets you print the contrastiest negs you have with a #00 filter or higher and the flattest negs you have with a #5 filter or lower. Once you've done that, this approach will work for all but the most extreme situations. It would be my preferred approach to using roll film, where scenes of many different subject luminance ranges are on one roll.
Modern films are really great at holding detail well into the "overexposure" range. Of course, if you use a retro film that shoulders out quickly, you might want to switch approaches.
However, this approach eliminates the whole visualization feature of the Zone System, which I find its most-useful attribute. Checking separation between different values (with and without filters) helps plan an expressive image. However, that really doesn't have much to do with deciding the actual exposure; a shadow value will suffice.
With the full-blown Zone System, one strives for negatives that all have a similar contrast range. That was more important in the days of graded papers and when one wanted to print on a single grade of paper. Still, there were, in the heyday of graded papers, five or sometimes six different contrast grades available. Many felt, however, that the middle grades of 2 and 3 yielded the best prints. With today's VC papers, you can get good prints with the full range of contrasts available.
Keep in mind, that the contrast control in the ZS is largely done with changing the development time, not by changing exposure; that was determined by placing the shadow value where you wanted it. If we no longer need to worry so much about getting the negative contrast tailored exactly for a particular grade of paper, then we are more free to just develop normally and deal with contrast in other ways. Of course, there are extreme situations where this approach won't work well and changing development time would yield a better image, but those instances are more rare. Experienced photographers will recognize these situations and deal with them accordingly. Otherwise, the more-simple expose fully, develop so that your negs will be printable approach works well.
Best,
Doremus
I use the Zone System for metering only. I have not needed to use the development part.
What happens if the ground is in shade making the shadow areas even darker? Setting the shadow value at 3 could blow out the highlights in the sky. I realize that's more of a problem with positive chrome film. But even negative BW film has a limit. Shouldn't you at least take a reading of the sky to see the stops difference just to verify you aren't going to clip the highlights there? Maybe you need to use a graduated ND filter or allow the shadow to go black keeping the more important highlight to not clip? (Note: I don't use zone system or develop my own film so everything I say is just thoughts I have.)
...
But, now days, we have different film emulsions, developers and paper, and insights too (not to mention the influence of the the digital approach)...
Doesn't that change things?
....
Regarding positive chrome films you would indeed clip the highlights. With a wide brightness range for chromes something is either going to be very black or very white/clear on the film (or both if the scene is very contrasty). Black and white negative film is a lot more forgiving to extra exposure and a little more forgiving to under exposure. But either can benefit from graduated ND filters to help reduce the overall contrast range of the scene. Graduated ND only works well if you can hide the transition line of the filter, which in many cases is not possible.
Black and white negative film can usually handle quite a few stops of over exposure before shouldering off (or clipping in other words). With that knowledge I find reducing the highlights with burning in (aka printing down) at the printing stage easier to manage than graduated ND in the field in most cases.
In the above case you could also develop less to compress the entire contrast range. Good in many cases, this also reduces your local contrast. Local contrast is very important in a print and in my opinion all to frequently ignored when talking about zone system development changes, especially contraction.
Two different things to address here: I'll start with transparency film.What happens if the ground is in shade making the shadow areas even darker? Setting the shadow value at 3 could blow out the highlights in the sky. I realize that's more of a problem with positive chrome film. But even negative BW film has a limit. Shouldn't you at least take a reading of the sky to see the stops difference just to verify you aren't going to clip the highlights there? Maybe you need to use a graduated ND filter or allow the shadow to go black keeping the more important highlight to not clip? (Note: I don't use zone system or develop my own film so everything I say is just thoughts I have.)
For the most part I do something like this, although I wouldn’t call it sloppy, but rather fast/simple when fast/simple is what I need or want. Give TMax400 ample light and it is quite forgiving and easy to print on VC paper too.Or, you can just be sloppy; get yourself the film with the highest dynamic range you can find, use your camera in auto mode, err on the side of overexposure in contrasty scenes (heck, a stop or two more can't hurt, right?) and then just fire away. Develop for the manufacturer's recommended time in their recommended developer and use VC paper. I imagine that all but the most extreme scenes will be able to be printed successfully.
I found that the exposure latitude of slide film is too narrow to bother with shadows. Take the light readings without the sky and the exposure will be correct and there will be some shadow detail included without blowing out the highlights.
Quite similar with me. Even the metering part, except when the scene is “not normal “, bothered me and I dropped it in lieu of simpler metering techniques to achieve same/similar goals.It was the developing part that bothered me in the beginning, then I 'dropped' it, but still...
If I read what is explained here, I think I'm more likely to use some kind of a very simplified version of the Zone System, which I wouldn't dare to call zone system, absolutely not, but I can live with it...
…
"expose for the shadows, print for the highlights". That's a simple way of referring to the Zone System.
The correct phrase is "expose for the shadows, develop for the highlights".
I have always heard "expose for the shadows, print for the highlights". It's always worked for me when I do it. I usually shoot in manual and just point the lens at the darkest subject in the scene, set my exposure with TTL meter and shoot away. Doesn't matter what I set my ISO/ASA at. If it's neg film I usually over expose 1 stop my setting my ISO/ASA to one stop less from box speed depending on the film. i.e 400 film at 200 on my camera. Pretty simple really.
Believe me, I make an effort to find the best translator and also look at what americans write.
Thank you, I like your version. Please be patient
Two different things to address here: I'll start with transparency film.
With transparency film (slides, chromes, whatever you call it), use of the Zone System and the adage of exposing for the shadows is reversed. You should be basing exposures for transparency film on the highlights. Due to the rather limited dynamic range of transparency film, you should be aiming for a textured/detailed white at two stops over the meter reading. Usually, then, the shadows just fall where they may, since there are very few practical contrast controls. However, for very contrasty scenes, there are a couple of things that can be done including flashing the film at Zone II or thereabouts or asking for development "pulls" from the lab.
If you're using an averaging or incident meter with transparency film, you need to recognize contrasty situations and give more exposure so the highlights don't block up. The shadows are going to go black (maybe it would be better to come back on a cloudy day?).
The Zone System was really developed for black-and-white negative materials and is at its best there, so on to that topic:
Shadows in the shade together with shadows in the lit areas together with brightly lit areas in a scene is about as contrasty a situation as you can find. Think crepuscular shadows inside a dark structure but with a sunlit scene in a large open window and you want to get detail in all of that.
First, some considerations:
Film choice for situations like this are important. If you're using a film that has a limited dynamic range and shoulders off quickly, then exposing for the shadows will definitely block up the highlights if development is "normal." So, the only way you're going to get the image you want with this film is to use a reduced development time or some form of compensating development. All that is great and falls neatly in the classic Zone System practice: Expose for the shadows, develop for the highlights.
However, if you use a film with a large dynamic range, say TMY or another modern high-dynamic-range film, the highlights will not block up on the film's shoulder with normal development in all but the most extreme of cases; you'll just end up with a very contrasty negative. With such a film, there are more possibilities to get the print you want.
Here are a couple of approaches:
First, the classic Zone System approach (the one you'd want with a low-dynamic-range film): Meter the lowest shadow you still want some detail in, place that in Zone II or III (depending on your vision and how much detail you really want in the shadow) and determine your exposure. Now meter the other values in the scene and come up with a development scheme that will keep all those values within or close to the dynamic range of the paper you are printing with (and keeping in mind that you can always dodge and burn - often a contrastier negative that has easy areas to dodge and burn yields a better print than one that has the dynamic range compressed to match that of the printing paper).
Second, the modern variant of the Zone System that depends more on high-dynamic-range films and VC paper contrast controls: Meter as above, but then just develop normally. Use a low contrast setting/filtration for your printing paper. Dodge, burn, and maybe pre-flash your paper to get the contrasty negative's dynamic range to fit on the paper.
Third, a hybrid of sorts between the two. This is really only necessary if you determine, with your metering, that the subject luminance range is going to be too great for even your high-dynamic-range film and the contrast controls you have available from VC paper. Expose for the shadows, figure out the minimum development time reduction you need to get the negative's dynamic range down to a place where it's comfortable for you to print. An example might be pairing N-1 development with a #0 filter for VC paper.
And, since the thread here is about how to "meter for the shadows" if you don't have a spot meter, here are some metering alternatives for very contrasty scenes:
Use Phil Davis' incident metering technique described in his Beyond the Zone System method. This entails metering the incident light illuminating the shadows as well as that illuminating the lit part of the scene and calculating an exposure that retains shadow detail (and, in BTZS, gives you a development time as well).
Use an averaging or center-weighted meter (in-camera or not) and use exposure compensation to correct for the underexposure such meters usually give contrasty or high-key scenes. This requires experience and knowing your materials. However, since this kind of metering is usually used with smaller, roll-film cameras, bracketing in such situations is more economically feasible and better ensures getting a usable negative.
Or, you can just be sloppy; get yourself the film with the highest dynamic range you can find, use your camera in auto mode, err on the side of overexposure in contrasty scenes (heck, a stop or two more can't hurt, right?) and then just fire away. Develop for the manufacturer's recommended time in their recommended developer and use VC paper. I imagine that all but the most extreme scenes will be able to be printed successfully.
Really, it's underexposure and under- / overdevelopment that are the real enemies to making good prints.
Best,
Doremus
I found that the exposure latitude of slide film is too narrow to bother with shadows. Take the light readings without the sky and the exposure will be correct and there will be some shadow detail included without blowing out the highlights.
Evidently Derek is not familiar with the concepts of the Zone System. I do not know where he learned the phrase "expose for the shadows, print for the highlights", or even what it means.
The phrase is the crux of the Zone System.
Retire an understanding of how light 'works'? Odd.....
Given the profound changes in photographic materials, perhaps it’s time for ZS to retire? Kinda like Dunn’s duplex metering was good until it became OBE (by popular demand… but not me).
Given the changes in the way film speed is defined, it could be said that the zone system has been obsolete since 1960.
Given the changes in the way film speed is defined, it could be said that the zone system has been obsolete since 1960.
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