How do YOU "Expose for the Shadows" (without a spot meter)

[albada]

[...] Subject Luminance Range ("SLR") [...]

In the past, I've read it as "Subject Brightness Range" (SBR). Has terminology changed?

Anyway, Ansel Adams created the zone system to avoid two common problems: (1) losing detail in the film's toe, and (2) losing detail in the film's shoulder. The goals are to fit the SBR/SLR between the film's toe and shoulder, and then to fit the resulting density-range of the negative onto the exposure-range (ER) of the paper at a contrast that looks good.

 

[Paul Howell]

As noted above I shoot with a camera's spot meter to meter shadows, but when I do have dark shadows areas in most cases I find that matrix metering works just as well. If using a older manual camera with TTL there is a number of different metering patters, center average, bottom weighted, or few models with spot meter. My old Miranda EE has very heavy bottom weight average mode, and a 10% spot meter, when shooting a vertical shot, need to change to the spot mode as the bottom weighted pattern will a really strange exposure.

 

[Vaughn]

I have always used SBR. And I agree, one of the best uses of a spot meter as a tool is to gain an understanding of the range and placement of light values in one's scene. Since I do no burning nor dodging, this is helpful in understanding the image.

If I am in a hurry in changing light, I will just read the shadows as I have described it, determine the exposure for the shadows, make a quick check on highlight values, and begin my exposure. Then as I have time, I'll check the SBR and make notes about development. Or I might just start the exposure, then as the film is exposing, meter the scene and determine the exposure. When my exposure time is going to be in tens or scores of minutes, I have time to figure these things out...in the meantime, might as well start the exposure. I have been known to nap during longer exposures.

 

[Sirius Glass]

As noted above I shoot with a camera's spot meter to meter shadows, but when I do have dark shadows areas in most cases I find that matrix metering works just as well. If using a older manual camera with TTL there is a number of different metering patters, center average, bottom weighted, or few models with spot meter. My old Miranda EE has very heavy bottom weight average mode, and a 10% spot meter, when shooting a vertical shot, need to change to the spot mode as the bottom weighted pattern will a really strange exposure.

Matrix metering should not be underestimated in its capabilities. in the past central area metering did not pick up much or any shadow detail, however matrix metering will especially if one meters without the sky in the field of view of the matrix.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

I started using my digital camera as a meter especially checking the histogram and blinkies to determine the best exposure on my film cameras.

 

[MattKing]

In the past, I've read it as "Subject Brightness Range" (SBR). Has terminology changed?

So I have learned, courtesy of @Stephen Benskin and his posts here.
Although perhaps it is a case of the correct and accurate phrase "Subject Luminance Range" never being the "popular" phrase, because it is so confusing to use the acronym for the alternative - "SLR" - in any photographic context without meaning the type of camera.
It actually makes sense, as "Brightness" probably better refers to something that emits light, rather than reflects it refers to how we perceive luminance, while luminance is actually the measure of the light reflected.
I expect though that most people will continue to use SBR.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

When I started this thread I thought the phrase "expose for the shadows" probably meant taking some kind of meter reading from some kind of shadow area and using that reading to calculate how the camera should be set. Much as described by Vaughn in posts #2 and #4.

But before asking for details about how various members expose for the shadows in actual practice, I guess I should have started out with bigger question(s) like:

1. Is exposing for the shadows a valid/useful approach when metering all scenes - or only some scenes?

2. Is there any advantage in trying to "expose for the shadows" when using roll film with no intention of following through with N+/N- development?

3. Does "expose for the shadows" simply (and vaguely) mean "don't underexpose the shadows" using whatever method, and does not specifically suggest that any shadow areas should actually be metered?

Yes,whatever you do,don't underexpose the shadows and always err on the side of over exposure

 

[Paul Howell]

Matrix metering should not be underestimated in its capabilities. in the past central area metering did not pick up much or any shadow detail, however matrix metering will especially if one meters without the sky in the field of view of the matrix.

I agree, I use the Zone System (Minor White's Version) when shooting sheet film and I want capsulate a scene as I visualized it. I would give a nod to Nikon's martix, my Minolta 9 is very good as is oddly my Sigma SA7 and 9.

 

[Derek Lofgreen]

I was taught that when you use the "shoot for the shadows, print for the highlights" approach it was for fast moving subjects. Street, travel etc. I don't concern myself with the zone system during these times. If I am outside and the lighting is pretty consistant I just take a reading off of a shadow area, set my camera and shoot, shoot, shoot. I don't take a meter reading again. This works great especially for color neg film but my BW neg of choice works the same. The highlights just won't blow out. Shoot for the shadows and let the highlights land where they may.

 

[Bill Burk]

So I have learned, courtesy of @Stephen Benskin and his posts here.
Although perhaps it is a case of the correct and accurate phrase "Subject Luminance Range" never being the "popular" phrase, because it is so confusing to use the acronym for the alternative - "SLR" - in any photographic context without meaning the type of camera.
It actually makes sense, as "Brightness" probably better refers to something that emits light, rather than reflects it - luminance better describing the light reflected.
I expect though that most people will continue to use SBR.

Stephen Benskin encourages us to be precise with terminology, and it helps to keep from having to go back and fix an old post if you can just as easily say the right thing. A quick visit to Wikipedia will tell you brightness is how the luminance is perceived.

 

[MattKing]

Stephen Benskin encourages us to be precise with terminology, and it helps to keep from having to go back and fix an old post if you can just as easily say the right thing. A quick visit to Wikipedia will tell you brightness is how the luminance is perceived.

Thanks for the correction Bill. I've included it in my original post.

 

[BrianShaw]

Stephen Benskin encourages us to be precise with terminology, and it helps to keep from having to go back and fix an old post if you can just as easily say the right thing.

Precise, or accurate????

 

[Mainecoonmaniac]

You can expose for shadows without a spot meter. Handheld meters in reflectance mode and spot meter measure reflected light. Just hold your meter in the shadow areas and stop down 2 stops if you want to place your shadows in zone III. But just don't meter shadow. After placing your shadows, see where important highlights "fall". Most average meter readings give decent shadows. If you're shooting roll film, just bracket.

 

[Bill Burk]

I usually do -1EV from the incident shadow reading. It works well. In the photo below I wanted full detail on the shaded coconuts:



Am I missing something?

That’s a good approach. Phil Davis wrote instructions for shadow metering with incident meter in BTZS (1981 printing pg. 61) where he asks you to “double all the film speed values” so basically do what you did there with that -1 EV.

In BTZS you take another reading taken out in direct light, find the difference and add five to find your SLR (disambiguation: subject luminance range, not your single lens reflex camera).

In the same chapter he admits this doubling film speed is unorthodox.

And there are some details about determining film speed 2 1/2 stops above the dMIN of the speed tests. I will have to think that over. It probably just means that you should choose film speeds according to his instructions instead of using speeds you came up with other ways.

 

[Vaughn]

Stephen Benskin encourages us to be precise with terminology, and it helps to keep from having to go back and fix an old post if you can just as easily say the right thing. A quick visit to Wikipedia will tell you brightness is how the luminance is perceived.

Since I am more interested in how I and others perceive the scene, I'll stick with SBR.

 

[MattKing]

Since I am more interested in how I and others perceive the scene, I'll stick with SBR.

It is quite hard to find the perception settings on my cameras though.
SBR for visualization, SLR for exposure analysis.

 

[Vaughn]

Cameras can be perception devices. Depends on the operator. And since I operate within a world of perception, SBR fits me much better. I measure what I perceive. If the act of measurement turns the subjective brightness into objective luminance, so be it. Still reconized as being the same dang thing amongst regular folk.




noun: luminance

1. the intensity of light emitted from a surface per unit area in a given direction.
   
   
   
   

 

[Doremus Scudder]

Depends on the meter I'm using...

Spot meter = take a reading from a shadow area and place it in the Zone where I want it (Zone III = detailed black = two stops under the meter reading)

Averaging or center-weighted in-camera meter. Just meter and use the meter's suggestion. Test and adjust E.I. till shadow exposure is adequate. Make sure to use exposure compensation to overexpose very contrasty scenes.

It's not rocket science. If you're negatives are consistently underexposed with the way you meter, adjust your E.I.

Best,

Doremus

 

[Paul Howell]

Phil Davis writing seems to clear that the BTZS was intended for use with sheet film, and required extensive testing. As I recall when I took the Zone seminar from Minor White in the 60s he was also of the opinion that the Zone had limited value with roll film, what it provide was the E.I for a given camera, meter, film and developer combo, but as film was developed to obtain a chosen highlight zone roll film could not be easily previsualized as with sheet film. Reading AA, he is less clear, and he did shoot 120 roll film using the zone.

 

[Bill Burk]

Phil Davis writing seems to clear that the BTZS was intended for use with sheet film, and required extensive testing. As I recall when I took the Zone seminar from Minor White in the 60s he was also of the opinion that the Zone had limited value with roll film, what it provide was the E.I for a given camera, meter, film and developer combo, but as film was developed to obtain a chosen highlight zone roll film could not be easily previsualized as with sheet film. Reading AA, he is less clear, and he did shoot 120 roll film using the zone.

Paul,

I would follow if you started a thread where all you do is tell the stories about your seminar with Minor White.


I joke about getting this as a tattoo…. It’s Minor White’s mystic cycle of photographic communication.

 

[albada]

It’s Minor White’s mystic cycle of photographic communication.

That mystic cycle portrays a folding rollfilm camera from the 1910s. Minor White could have at least drawn a rangefinder. /2

 

[snusmumriken]

That mystic cycle portrays a folding rollfilm camera from the 1910s. Minor White could have at least drawn a rangefinder. /2

Over here in the UK, speed cameras are represented like this:

 

[BHuij]

Honestly I just use a spot meter.

When I don't have one, I try to get up close to the darkest part of the scene and fill as much of the frame with that area as I can for my shadow reading. *shrug* - not really anymore complicated than that.

 

[runswithsizzers]

Honestly I just use a spot meter.

When I don't have one, I try to get up close to the darkest part of the scene and fill as much of the frame with that area as I can for my shadow reading. *shrug* - not really anymore complicated than that.

Then what do you do with the shadow reading? Do you set the camera to match the meter reading, or do you stop down by some amount? And is your meter set to the film ISO or something else?

 

[eli griggs]

Look at your hand's palm in and against the scene you want to shoot and, keeping in mind you hand is about a 'V' on the the zone system scale, look for a similar value of light falling onto the scene, then guess the number of stops needed to get shadow detail to where you want it to lay.



You might also try making some disks of smooth, white styrofoam plate bottoms, for placing into Series filter holders which you can pre-expose film frames at about 10 - 20% of your final exposure, making first the pre-exposure, removing the filter, which the lens exposed at infinity focusing, recocking the camera with the frame held in place for the double exposure.

With bracketing and experience you'll be able to pre-visualize where the shadow detail will fall within your exposure.

Cheers