Home Chemistry Storage Confusion

[RobertV]

Schott professional bottles are coated by a plastic which prevents when the glas bottle breaks the fluid can float away. Glass is 100% diffusion free so for critical (photo-) chemicals my first choice.
The Jobo bottles are made from HD-Polyethylene and very practical in use.
The black ones (for developer) I use for my CPA-2 processor, which is outside the darkroom so the only one which can catch direct sunlight. Forming radicals is pretty rare and when working in the darkroom, these dark bottles are not necessary at all.

HRST, not wise to make any personal attack. Unnecessary and certainly not too Mr. Lambrecht who has one of the biggest darkroom experiences of all members on APUG.
It's not a problem when you have your own point of view but not in this way.

Maybe better to follow one of his seminars in Germany or here in Holland.

 

[fotch]

Bottles do not mean anything special to me; I'm just stating the facts as they are. But thank you for your solicitude! PM sent with a bit more considerations.

hst, thank you for your PM. Reply sent.
Thanks again.

 

[hrst]

HRST, not wise to make any personal attack.

I'm sorry, but I don't think I'm exactly attacking! In fact, I think that my posts have quite a good signal-to-noise ratio, at least 70%. But you are probably right, and I'm sorry about any inconvenience caused by my words. I agree they are too harsh sometimes, but definitely not an attack, more like an overkill defence reaction!

Peace & love.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

I think all readers and participants to this thread only want the best for their families and themselves, and I'm sure they know how to make that happen. nevertheless, let's hope this discussion has helped to increase awareness to darkroom safety. If that's the case, it was worth it!

 

[Sirius Glass]

I think all readers and participants to this thread only want the best for their families and themselves, and I'm sure they know how to make that happen. nevertheless, let's hope this discussion has helped to increase awareness to darkroom safety. If that's the case, it was worth it!

My children are adults and I do not have to worry someone mixing up chemistry and food containers, but not only are my photographic measures only graduated cylinders and funnels are marked "Photo only", all my photo chemistry is kept separately from the rest of the household items. When I use the kitchen sink for photography, everything else is cleared out and there is a large plastic box with photographic items set out to remind anyone that the kitchen is a darkroom and not to be used for food until I clear out everything and do a complete scrub down.

Steve

 

[fschifano]

Now there's the rub. Opened, they might not last long at all. Developing agents are amont the worst offenders since they will oxidize. I've had packages of Dektol, whose packaging had been breached, turn brown and loose quite a bit of effectiveness. I'm sure the sodium sulfite in the package went bad too. In an anhydrous state, the sulfite is pretty stable, but it will pick up moisture form the air. Once it does, it becomes less stable and will oxidize to sodium sulfate which offers developing agents no protection against oxidation. Powdered fixers also contain quite a bit of sodium sulfite to protect the sodium thiosulfate from decomposing in an acidic environment once mixed up. Without this protection, the thiosulfate has a shelf life measured in seconds once in solution with an acid. That's the long answer. The short anwer is simple. You can't trust an opened package of dry developer or fixer to be good for very long. Fixer will usually last longer than developer, but once the sulfite is oxidized, it's toast. And guess what, sodium sulfite doesn't turn brown when it oxidizes, so there's no obvious visual cue. Bad fixer will be cloudy when it's mixed and will not clear over time. If it does, you will notice a precipitate of colloidal sulfur at the bottom of the container and the solution will stink of sulfur.

 

[Chriscc123]

then im going to assume for liquid devos and the like that its a as needed basis (i want this much stock so i make this much stock)? (im %99 positive on this, but it doesn't hurt to check)

 

[Q.G.]

You're right.
If you're not going to use it all before it goes bad, don't make or buy as much.
Sometimes, though, you can't get smaller quantities, and then you just have to use more of it.

 

[AgX]

It's very easy to strip of the label from beverage bottles and tag them according to real content. Then there's no more danger than with any bottle.

But the danger still is that one reaches for a similar looking bottle.

Even to me who constantly warns about these things it happened that I had, with a reason, a lab-bottle with solvent in my kitchen and I at least reached for that bottle whereas I actually was going for some beverage bottle next to it…

At least HDPE and PET are fine for practically all photographic solutions.

One should be careful with all materials.

PET has some weak points:
Nitric Acid, Sulphorous Acid, Acetic Acid, Potassium Hydroxide, Phosphoric Acid etc.

I remember one member reporting a PET bottle even breaking due to corrosion by a chemical commonly used by us.

 

[Monophoto]

Chris -

The issue of chemical storage is not all that complicated. First, you need to recognize that chemicals come in two forms - dry powders that must be mixed with water, and liquid concentrates. Dry powders are less expensive because you aren't paying for water, and because the weight is lower, shipping costs are less. And dry powders typically aren't considered hazardous and don't require special shipping. Liquid concentrates are far more convenient to use, and if you don't live near a large store that stocks a large selection of chemicals, may be the only thing that your local dealer will carry.

Dry chemicals come in two forms - prepackaged mixes, and raw chemicals (from specialty dealers such as Photographer's Formulary, Artcraft Chemicals, or Bostick & Sullivan). If you are using raw chemicals, you can mix whatever quantity you want - simply use a scale to weigh out the individual components. But if you are using the prepackaged mixes from Kodak, Ilford or some other supplier, you must mix the entire batch, and the final quantity of liquid that you have to store will be defined by the size of the package you buy. Manufacturers typically provide batch kits in one quart (or one liter) and one gallon (four liter) sizes. Buying the larger size is less expensive, but then creates the issue of storage.

The other distinction you need to have is that there is usually a 'stock' solution and a 'working' solution. The stock solution is intended for storage, and is diluted with water to make a 'working' solution. Working solutions typically are intended for one-time use and disposal. There are schemes for reusing working solutions and some manufacturers sell replenishment kits. But these are intended for large quantity uses for whom chemical costs are a significant component of their total operating costs. Most home users are better off using working solutions as 'one-shot' and disposing of the chemicals after they are used.

So if you are starting with dry mixes, then you have a choice between one quart and one gallon sizes. You can get gallon containers, and that may make sense for chemicals that tend to have a long shelf life - fixer or hypo clear, as examples. But developers don't age very well, and to get the longest life from the stock solution, you need to minimize exposure to air. So for developers, if you choose the one gallon package size, it's best to store the stock solution in four one-quart containers. Fill three all the way to the top, and seal them tightly. Then, the fourth container will only be partially full, and is the first container to be used.

If your starting point is liquid concentrates, consider these to be stock solutions that are diluted as required for one-time use. They are available in one quart, two quart and one gallon sizes although most smaller dealers typically only stock the quart sizes.

Now the matter of containers. You can certainly purchase storage containers, but the fact is that you don't need fancy bottles to store chemicals. Any clean container will work. Stop, fixer, and hypoclear can be stored in plastic containers. You can recycle the containers that liquid concentrates are supplied in, or you can recycle containers from ordinary household items. I use shampoo bottles, bleach jugs, lemon juice concentrate bottles, beer bottles, and wine bottles. Practically, you want something with a good screw closure, and if you standardize on the ubiquitous 28mm closure, you will find that you have a never-ending supply of replacements. Try to avoid bottles with exotic closures. And of course, bottles must be scrupulously clean before use - rinse them out several times with warm water, then fill them with water and let them sit for a few days, then rinse again.

Developers that you mix from powders should be stored in glass because air incursion can cause accelerated aging of developers. You don't need brown glass - any color works just find.

Finally, a critical point is to make sure that your chemicals are stored safely. The chemicals used in typical home darkrooms are not all that dangerous, but they don't go very well with a ham sandwich. Make sure that chemicals and food can never be confused, and make sure that children can't get to them. If you don't have a fixed darkroom space where you can store your chemicals, investing in an inexpensive cabinet to store them in may make sense.

Wry chemicals, you must mix the complete package of

 

[fotch]

Monophoto post is very detailed. However, in regards to photo bottles, you also can get pint bottles, not just one quart and one gallon sizes. The smaller the bottle (to a point) the easier to use all of it up rather than deal with a half filled bottle, so I use 250ml (8oz.) glass bottles for developer.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Monophoto post is very detailed. However, in regards to photo bottles, you also can get pint bottles, not just one quart and one gallon sizes. The smaller the bottle (to a point) the easier to use all of it up rather than deal with a half filled bottle, so I use 250ml (8oz.) glass bottles for developer.

Someone left an interesting post about that subject, but I cannot remember who it was.

Anyway, he uses one 2l bottle and two 1l and 1/2l bottles. I believe his procedure went like this:

Once the 2l bottle is opened, fill one 1l bottle and use the other for the rest. Once the last 1l bottle is started, do the same with the 1/2l bottles. This way one always has the smallest and fullest containers.

I thought that was pretty cool.

 

[Q.G.]

:confused:

You could also begin with dividing the stuff over 1/2l bottles, and avoid aerating the solution by pouring it from one bottle into another.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

:confused:

You could also begin with dividing the stuff over 1/2l bottles, and avoid aerating the solution by pouring it from one bottle into another.

You cannot do that, because that makes way too much sense!

Actually, I think I didn't tell the story right. He started with 5 liters of working solution, spread over those containers, using the smaller volumes first and refilling them from the larger containers.

Sorry.

 

[tkamiya]

That's my process.

Mix XTOL. Start with 2 liter, 1 liter, 1 liter, 1/2 liter, and 1/2 liter - all full. Start using from smaller. When both 1/2 liter are empty and need to use from 1 liter, do that and pour remaining into two 1/2 liters. Process keeps going until all are used up. When 1/2 liter is half full, I squeeze side to get rid of as much air as I can. Amazingly, these bottles keep great seal. Using this method, XTOL lasted 7 months+ with no detectable degradation. I did not test it farther because I thought I used it all up.

Yesterday, I found 1/2 of 1/2 liter bottle remaining. It was 11 months old by the time. It gave very inconsistent result in clip test, so I dumped it.

Good enough for me....

PS: "squeeze sides" part is new. I just started doing it few months ago after seeing XTOL sucked all the air in the bottle up. I don't fill the smallest one to brim from larger, actually.... I don't touch the larger bottles until I need to open it to make use of it.

 

[Reinhold]

A quick peek at how I use bottles in my darkroom...

90% glass.
Mostly salvaged Gallo wine bottles. Remember that stuff?
It was sold in straight sided 1/2 and 1 gallon bottles, later in 3-liter sizes.
I persuaded my neighbors to collect 'em for me too.
Over 40 years, I never broke one of 'em.

All working solution bottles are kept full to the lid... No airspace.
Stock developers (Dektol, Ansco 130, etc ) are stored in small 8-ounce bottles, full to the lid.
If any bottle is partly full, it has been topped off with an inert gas.
Some solutions are re-bottled into progressively smaller bottles... always full to the lid.

I also use a couple of gallon plastic juice jugs... I like 'em for stop bath.
Dry chemicals are in widemouth glass or plastic.
For spot reducers, I have a few dropper bottles, but not being airtight, they need periodic refilling.

You're looking at a 40+ year of dealing with photo chemistry.
My darkroom(s) are (were) dedicated rooms where no foodstuffs were ever stored.
My wife and I are childless, but when friends bring their children the darkroom is closed and off-limits.

Those folks just getting started can look forward to variety in their darkroom storage as the years progress...
Don't get obsessive-compulsive over it...

Have fun (collecting bottles)

Reinhold

www.classicBWphoto.com

 

[tkamiya]

Don't get obsessive-compulsive over it...
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But, but.... that goes against the unwritten internet forum rules! Keep searching for the ultimate-universal-truth and keep arguing until all the cows come home 8 times!!

Mooooooooooooooo!

 

[MattKing]

If you are going to re-use containers that previously held drinkable liquids, you need to be specially careful. Some things to consider doing:

1) Make up large and clear labels indicating what is inside. It is probably exaggeration, but it doesn't hurt to put "HARMFUL IF SWALLOWED" or "POISON" or a skull and cross-bones graphic on them as well;
2) Colour code the bottles and/or the labels using colours inconsistent with store-bought drinks;
3) Use bottles that have distinctive sizes and shapes, and put liquids in them that are inconsistent with what is stored in them at the store (e.g. I use bottles that are normally used for tomato or Clamato juice, which has a distinctive red colour);
4) Put more than one label on each bottle, to make it virtually impossible to pick up a bottle and not be able to see the label;
5) Label the caps as well as the bottle.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

If you are going to re-use containers that previously held drinkable liquids, you need to be specially careful. Some things to consider doing:

1) Make up large and clear labels indicating what is inside. It is probably exaggeration, but it doesn't hurt to put "HARMFUL IF SWALLOWED" or "POISON" or a skull and cross-bones graphic on them as well;
2) Colour code the bottles and/or the labels using colours inconsistent with store-bought drinks;
3) Use bottles that have distinctive sizes and shapes, and put liquids in them that are inconsistent with what is stored in them at the store (e.g. I use bottles that are normally used for tomato or Clamato juice, which has a distinctive red colour);
4) Put more than one label on each bottle, to make it virtually impossible to pick up a bottle and not be able to see the label;
5) Label the caps as well as the bottle.

Matt

You for got one:

6) Consider purposely made chemical containers instead.

 

[MattKing]

Matt

You for got one:

6) Consider purposely made chemical containers instead.

Hi Ralph:

I actually prefer these containers to any of the purposely made chemical containers.

The attached image doesn't really show that the bottles have a built in "grip".

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Hi Ralph:

I actually prefer these containers to any of the purposely made chemical containers.

The attached image doesn't really show that the bottles have a built in "grip".

The nightmare continues.
The grip was added to make it easier to throw them away!

 

[MattKing]

Actually Ralph, if I could find a purposely made chemical container with the advantages of these containers (transparent, strong, grip-able shape, wide opening, sturdy and wide base, reasonable footprint, reasonable height and good cap) for a reasonable price, I would be happy to buy and use them.

 

[kristopher_lawrence]

Speaking of chemistry storage, I almost only use brown plastic bottles from the drugstore. The kind of bottles that pharmacists use to sell liquid medication. They are solid, have a scale (well not that precise but still) and generally have a safety cap too as well as being more resistant to impact than glass. I generally get them for very very cheap too.

I never tested their resistance to chemicals scientifically, but I have some that are about 4 or 5 years old and still no leaks.

 

[fotch]

:confused:

You could also begin with dividing the stuff over 1/2l bottles, and avoid aerating the solution by pouring it from one bottle into another.

I think just pouring the chemicals is aerating it. How much, I don't know, but it won't be zero. But if it works, it works. I like smaller bottles and don't have to keep pouring and re-pouring and re-pouring. The only aerating would be pouring into the tank which cannot be avoided.

 

[tkamiya]

Fotch,

I actually go into my top secret vacuum chamber to do the pouring. I just hold my breath and do my chemical transfers..... (hehe) Yeah, it's not zero. But based on result, it works for me. As someone said earlier, I don't think we need to be hyper careful with this stuff. Do our best given the circumstances. We are, after all, only talking about a bag of chemical that cost about 10 bucks for 5 liter worth....