Home Chemistry Storage Confusion

[Chriscc123]

I am new to the whole develop at home thing, (not at school) and am not sure how to go about storing all my chemistry, first off, how large a bottle do i need for each thing, or should i use a tank? second, should i mix stop and fix that I've used for both neg devo and printing? Those are my main confusions for now.

Thanks, Chris

 

[Kevin Caulfield]

Generally you would keep stock solutions and mix as required. Developer for processing film and for printing are usually different. Fixer and stop are the same for both, but fixer is used at different dilutions for each.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

When I started out, I bought a set of 6 brown 2-liter bottles to store working solutions and a set of beakers ranging from 30 ml to 2 liter to mix chemicals. Add more as required. To keep things simple (and improve fixing) you can use film-strength fixer for paper, but avoid using the same solution for both.

 

[Chriscc123]

wow! i completely forgot that film and paper working solution are diluted differently.... that would have ended bad

also, whats the main difference between wide mouths and narrow ones, any preference?

and again, how does everyone feel on reusing paper devo? (some things I really should know... but alas i don't... what are you gunna do?)

 

[Ian Grant]

Paper dev is best not re-used for optimal results. It's cheap so trying to re-use is false economy.

Wide mouth bottles are just a bit easier to fill & pour from, there's no othere advantages or disadvantages.

Ian

 

[Ian David]

I like glass bottles for chems, in large part because you can get them 100% clean every time (and see that they are clean). A collection of 1 litre and 500ml bottles will do the trick for most ordinary purposes (a dozen of each is good, but you can easily start with fewer). Brown bottles may not be necessary, but I do like the brown ones. The ridged ones marked POISON are good for both the ridges and the warning.

Ian

 

[RalphLambrecht]

wow! i completely forgot that film and paper working solution are diluted differently.... that would have ended bad

also, whats the main difference between wide mouths and narrow ones, any preference?

and again, how does everyone feel on reusing paper devo? (some things I really should know... but alas i don't... what are you gunna do?)

I use all film chemicals (except for the stop bath) one-shot. This makes sense with rotation processing, because the volumes are small (usually 300 ml) and it makes for a consistent process. All paper chemicals are re-used as long as they keep their performance, which was determined by prior tests. My paper developer (Dektol) performs (develops max black) for a long time. Discarding it after every session would be a waste and environmentally irresponsible, but can be necessary after a mammoth session. Again, I use film-strength fixer for both: film and paper with the two-bath fixing method. I believe, underfixing film and paper is the most common causes of image deterioration. You cannot hurt your paper by using film-strength fixer. Doing so just shortens your fixing time, which is a good thing.

 

[Christopher Walrath]

Just in case this applies. I do not do a lot of darkroom work. I work in a cramped space so it is set, work, break down, everytime. I use everything one shot for each session. Mix it. Use it. Reuse if necessary. Dump it. I only store chems as I get them from my supplier. The only thing I do is upon opening a container of chemistry, I pour the liquid of into 4 ounce amber glass bottles. I seal all but the one I am using with candle wax and then displace my user bottle with glass marbles to keep the levels up and more of the air out.

 

[Rich Ullsmith]

I wish I lived next door to Chris and Ralph! I would give each of them a great big nalgene bottle to put their spent one-shot fixer in, and I would gladly dispose of it for them!

 

[RalphLambrecht]

I wish I lived next door to Chris and Ralph! I would give each of them a great big nalgene bottle to put their spent one-shot fixer in, and I would gladly dispose of it for them!

Trust me, when my 300 ml of fixer have fixed two to four rolls of film as a first and second fixer bath, you don't want them anymore.

 

[tkamiya]

Here's what I do:

Film:
Developer XTOL 1 SINGLE USE 1:1 - 2 liter, 1 liter, 1 liter, 500cc, 500cc bottles. Start using from smaller and refill from larger when empty
Fixer Kodak fixer REUSED 1 liter bottle
Stop bath REUSED 1 liter bottle pre-diluted
Photo-Flo SINGLE USE 1 liter bottle pre-diluted
Hypo cleaner SINGLE USE 1 liter bottle

Paper:
Developer Dektol SINGLE USE (same bottle sequence as film except one less 1 liter bottle)
Fixer Kodak fixer REUSED 1 gallon bottle
STOP REUSED 1 liter bottle

When bought in 1 gallon size, paper developer is really cheap. Initially, I reused them for few days but these days, it's one shot only. If the same day, I cover the tray but beyond that, I dump it. Fixer is the same chemical but I have dedicated bottles for paper and film. Same goes for stop bath.

All of my bottles are typical photo chemical bottles. They are all plastic and brown. Not an accordion type. XTOL lasted 8 months (and possibly longer but I ran out)

When my 500cc bottle is half full, I squeeze the side and remove air, then cap.

All of that is stored in big plastic tub just in case they leak.

 

[fotch]

I mix developer and then store in 250ml Amber Glass Large Mouth Bottles. I am able to mix up Xtol into 20 bottles or D76 into 16 bottles and store with no air so it will last longer. Then I use one shot or 1:1.

Stop bath, if I am going t reuse, keep film/paper separate. For this I use commercial photo type plastic brown bottles. I don't worry about air infiltrating through the bottles, and I don't keep to long. Use it or lose it.

Fixer, I usually mix from powder, and store the stock solution in a couple of 1/2 gallon or gallon photo type plastic brown bottles. If, after mixing a working solution, it is not exhausted and going to reuse again, store in another plastic brown bottle. Since paper and film usually have different dilutions, each is kept separate.

When I rotary process, always use one shot and discard.

On the bottle labels, always state what it is and date mixed. On the bottles that contain already used chemicals, such as fix, I note the usage on the bottle.

I started off with use glass bottles from the local pharmacy, then as plastic became available, have, at various times, used accordion bottles, bladder or bag types, and plastic. I now have gone back to glass for the developers and anything that oxygen sensitive.

HTH

 

[Reinhold]

Chris,

Lot's of ways to approach this...

---Let's assume that you're working with 35mm or 120 roll film, not 4x5 or larger sheet film, and that you're using simple, hand agitated film tanks (Nikor, etc) and printing trays. No fancy-dancy Jobo stuff.
---Let's assume that you're printing no larger than 8x10 at this time.
---Let's also assume that you're in the darkroom only once a week or less.
---Assume that set-up time should be minimized.
---Finally, let's assume that you have a dedicated corner (cabinet?) to keep the equivalent of 5 or 6 one-half gallon jugs. (I'm partial to 3-liter wine jugs)

With these assumptions, you should be able to get by with 1/2 gallon containers for re-useable chemistry that has reasonable shelf life and minimal set-up time.

For printing; 3 jugs;
--Dektol 1+2; one jug. Keep filled to the top with fresh Dektol after each session.
--Stop Bath; one jug.
--Rapid Fixer; one jug. Mix 1+4 (as Ralph and Ilford suggest) or 1+7 as Kodak suggests.
Keep film and paper fixers separate! Do not intermix!
--Hypo clear; Do not save, it exhausts/oxidizes too easily. Mix from stock solutions for each session.

For film developing; 2 jugs;
--D-76, Xtol, etc., at working strength...
Consider using 1/2 gallon jugs filled to the top to prevent premature oxidation.
Larger fluid quantities reduce the risk of using exhausted chemistry.
--Film stop bath; use a one-shot squirt of Kodak or Ilford stop into a beaker of water.
(No jug needed, just a beaker of water with a squirt of Stop Bath concentrate).
Follow with a quick rinse of plain water.
--Film fixer; (rapid fixer 1+4) consider using a 1/2 gallon jug.
Keep track of the number of films fixed.
Some folks like to use diluted fixer one-shot, but you'll need to establish a "safe" working time.
--Hypo clear; mix only what you'll use for one night. Do not re-use, as mentioned above.

Like I said, there are lots of ways to approach this...

Have fun.

Reinhold

Take a peek at my darkroom at:
http://www.classicbwphoto.com/classicBWphoto/Darkroom.html

 

[Iwagoshi]

Warning! "Chemical" storage bottles are not cheap. I home process B/W, E-6, C41, Ilfochrome (with RA4 and C41 on the horizon) so the price for bottles adds up quickly. I learned my lessons, now I use 2-liter Pepsi bottles with the labels removed and re-labeled. They are not light-proof, and you need a funnel to fill, but the caps are air tight. And don't forget waste bottles for stuff you can't flush, I use emptied laundry detergent bottles.

 

[fschifano]

Iwagoshi is right about the cost of "chemical" storage bottles. I use a lot of seltzer water in 1L containers, so I use those. They work great, and the supply of bottles is almost endless. The empty plastic pop bottle supply is almost endless. In my neighborhood, Wednesday evening sees the recycling containers go out to the curb. Pickings are good, and I don't particularly care if anyone notices what I'm doing.

 

[hrst]

Bottles for photo chemicals DO NOT need to be light-proof, or amber. This is a very persistent urban legend which has been addressed many times here.

This urban legend is also disadvantageous, because clear bottles are clearly [pun intended] better because you can see if there is precipitate formed or other visible problems in your solutions.

The only possible exception would be if you store your chemicals in bright sunlight for long times. This is not a case in 99,99999999% of darkrooms .

---

I vote for PET soft drink bottles. Air doesn't get through the plastic and you can squeeze these "soft" bottles to displace the air very well, because of narrow mouth, transparent material and cap with good sealing. Try it!

 

[RalphLambrecht]

I really don't see the need for saving on chemical bottles. If you shop around a bit, you'll get them dirt-cheap and keep your darkroom tidy. A Pepsi bottle looks like a Pepsi bottle with or without label. I prefer professional containers for chemicals.

http://www.porters.com/film-darkroo...sories/boston-brown-chemical-bottle-pint.html

 

[hrst]

I prefer products that result in best quality in the chemical and photographic terms, and I make my selection based on these facts, not aesthetical ones or "feelings".

I however understand very well also the need to make darkroom look "cool". But it doesn't matter to everyone. Many people are like me, they are more interested in results and use best tools available. PET soda bottles, at least here, are one of the best tools available. They have very good cap design, come in many different sizes and have unbelievably good compression characteristics that allow the storage of any volume from 150 ml to 2000 ml by using bottles of 330 ml - 500 ml - 1000 ml - 1500 ml - 2000 ml, with only 1-5 ml of air left under the cap. These characteristics are unbeatable from many points of view, but yes, I understand, they are not "official" and they don't look "lab-like". With tidiness it has nothing to do.

The cost savings is merely a small extra benefit.

But, in the end, it comes to cost savings anyway. You can use those amber glass bottles which trap air inside too much and dump your developer after two or three months, or use compressable PET soda bottles and use the developer after 6 or even 12 months. Or then again, you can buy expensive "accordion bottles" that are useless and have your developer die anyway. Or you can use glass marbles in your glass bottle and get the same unbeatable results as with PET soda bottles but IMO in a harder way. It's up to you.

 

[hrst]

BTW, I have to add some unfortunate facts about the link you gave;

That kind of product is very non-professional. In fact, it has nothing to do with term "professional".

For example, it lacks the information about the material. It's very crucial. Which plastic it is? They just give some marketing BS, "neutral plastic". There is no such a thing as "neutral plastic". Different plastics have different characteristics and suit for different purposes differently . Then, it feeds the old myth about light-sensitivity.

Yes, it is squeezable, that is a good property, but is the cap design as good as in soda bottles? It may be or may not. I can't imagine it being any better, but I have seen lots of worse designs.

I would understand buying the professional glass bottles for some reason, but to buy plastic when you have it lying around..... Nothing wrong in it, but why criticize the other way?

So, what it seems to me, you are not preferring professional products, but just hypocritically falling to the same marketing "traps" as many beginners fall because of the myths surrounding this field. Sorry.

 

[Chriscc123]

well this is wonderful, this has given me many ideas as to what to do so far, 1. is to maybe use wine bottles?, got lots of them around, and if i can get big enough "containers" i will probably keep working solution around, but that raises the question for me, what are the general keep time for chemistry, how long till they exhaust, how long till they oxidize etc. (again, things i should know, but don't... and would like to know)

 

[RalphLambrecht]

hrst

Please don't get all hyped up about it. You are making a lot of assumptions:

1. no possible sunlight in 99,99999999% of darkrooms (don't worry, I won't ask for the statistical evidence)
2. 'Many people are like me, ...' (many think that about themselves, but let's hope there is more variety)
3. 'That kind of product is very non-professional ... it lacks the information about the material.'

I mean, how can you call it non-professional if you admit that you don't know what it is made of? I think you are mixing a statement about the product with a statement about the ad. Never judge a product by its advertisement. I have a few of these bottles. They are made of high-density polyethylene (HDPE) and are perfect for the job. I cannot second your recommendation for glass bottles, by the way. They might be perfect for storage, but I don't want to even think about them falling on the floor and breaking.

As you said 'it's up to you'. Use any 'safe' bottle you like for your chemicals, but make sure they don't look like Coke or Pepsi bottles to visitors including small children. Food containers are not recommended for chemicals for this reason alone!

 

[jp498]

I started with soda bottles and moved to juice/gatorade jugs because they have a bigger neck and are easier to pour/refill. I really like that they are clear. I like to see the color of the chemical; It should be the same as when I poured it into the bottle, but I like to see that with my eyes. I can see the tint of the stop bath, if the dektol is getting old. If there is some precipitate or nasty that would make me not want to pour that into a tray or developing tank, it's plainly apparent.

It is indeed good to make sure chemicals containers are not confused with food containers. I have a separate darkroom to keep everything in; no kids can go in without my supervision. No beverages inside unless it's in a coffee mug or pint glass.

 

[hrst]

It's very easy to strip of the label from beverage bottles and tag them according to real content. Then there's no more danger than with any bottle.

I agree that glass bottles can be cumbersome as there is risk of breaking, but that is very much up to user.

By "professional" products, I understand products with a brand, sold by chemistry supply houses such as VWR and not photo supply houses. I buy from VWR when I need to know what I buy. I find most "photo supply store" products of random quality or very expensive.

I agree that there is probably nothing wrong in those bottles linked, but there is still nothing "more professional" in them than any plastic bottles! Use what works. They are just plastic bottles, and there are really no quality differences in plastic bottles today... At least HDPE and PET are fine for practically all photographic solutions.

Test for cap tightness, it's not enough that it can keep the solution out, but it has to be so tight that it doesn't leak air when the bottle is squeezed and tries to reform back, causing a minor pressure difference.

 

[hrst]

1. is to maybe use wine bottles?,

Well why not, if you can displace most of the air somehow and cap them tightly, then they are awesome.

raises the question for me, what are the general keep time for chemistry, how long till they exhaust, how long till they oxidize etc.

This depends on almost everything, and general guidelines vary, but something like this may apply to most developers:
Half-filled bottle, capped tight: 2-4 weeks
Full bottle with a little air in it, capped tight: 2-4 months
Full bottle with practically no air in it, capped tight: 6 months or more.

BUT, it depends on developer... I have had RA-4 developer (working solution, used many times during the time!) last for more than 9 months in a HDPE bottle that even had some air in it. OTOH, XTOL has died in just 4 months even without air, this is a known problem and some say iron in water kills it.

Nitrogen cabinet solves the problem but most of us cannot afford it, at least not at home.

THEN, you also should consider the dissolved oxygen in water. You can get rid of it by quickly warming the water to almost boiling point and then let it cool.

As a last resort, not recommended for some reason, but I find this very useful: drop the temperature of the solutions. Use a refrigerator. As a general rule, dropping 10 deg. Celsius may double the life. I've proved this concept by testing on XTOL and it works fine, however, if the temperature is too low there is a risk of precipitation of some components. +10 deg.C should be a very good trade-off.

Impurities in water can also affect developers in the long term.

If you buy distilled water, boil it quickly, then mix the chemistry, pour it in 100% glass bottles or use plastic bottles and squeeze them and then store in the fridge you might get some unbelievably good shelf lifes! Maybe many years.

 

[RobertV]

I use the Jobo HD-Polyethylene wide bottles: 600ml and 1000ml.
And the Schott coated glass bottles of 1 ltr.
Both prof. bottles for chemicals and diffusion tight.

For developers I am using one shot only liquid types: AM74/RHS 1+9 - CG-512/RLS 1+4 - Rodinal/R09 one shot 1+50 - HC-110 1+31.
For stop Citric Acid 1+19, film fix 1+4, paper fix 1+7.

One shot liquid developers are also easy in tempering. Higher dilutions have in this way a big advantage.

Stop is re-used and has an indicator. Fix you can test with a KI solution of a limit of 2g/ltr. (Ag+) which is the limit for film fix and PE/RC paper fix.