Home Chemistry Storage Confusion

fotch · Aug 21, 2010

I agree with Ralph in regard to the safety factor of not using food containers. That is an accident waiting to happen.

Searching for data on this, some of what I found:

Accidental poisoning is one of the leading causes of death in America.
Keep all products in original containers.
Never transfer products like bleach, gasoline, insecticides or other household cleaning agents to another container such as a soft drink bottle, cup or bowl that would attract a child or pet.

The old saying prevention is better than cure holds true in the case of poisoning

If cost saving is not the goal, and you had to pay the same price for any container you choose, would you pick a new coke bottle?

To each their own, JMHO

fotch · Aug 21, 2010

Its pretty easy to fill to the top of any bottle and its as effective in eliminating air as squeezing a plastic bottle. Try it you will like it.

fotch · Aug 21, 2010

RalphLambrecht said:
..I cannot second your recommendation for glass bottles, by the way. They might be perfect for storage, but I don't want to even think about them falling on the floor and breaking....

This part I don't get. In 40 plus years, I never broke a glass bottle in the darkroom. I am usually working in a sink or on a counter top. When moving bottles from the shelf back and forth, I am able to keep my grasp of the bottle. Now, I will freely admit, accidents do happen. The most that would happen is a clean up job. A plastic bottle can also split if dropped, although less common than glass breakage, for sure.

In any case, still less dangerous than poisoning. I have changed from all glass to all plastic and now, use glass for developer, plastic for others. All photo bottles, no household bottles, period.

hrst · Aug 21, 2010

Luckily, most photographic solutions are not very poisonous, or poisonous at all. I'm not saying normal safety should be ignored, but household detergents such as chlorine bleach, or glycol used in cars as cooling fluid -- it tastes sweet but is poisonous! -- are much more problematic than dilute working solutions in darkroom. They taste bad and you need quite a dose until it's really dangerous. It depends on chemical, though, so it should go without saying that be careful if there are other people around.

Keys to prevent poisoning are;
1) Marking the bottles with appropriate labels,
2) Keeping the bottles out of the reach of children, pets etc.

So, just using "photo store" bottles and blaming soda bottle users on the Internet is very false security! It is not enough, if you really are anxious about this.

Darkrooms are not a source of poisonings at homes, because people usually put some thought on these things, which is good. But the everyday life poses some invisible dangers.

RalphLambrecht · Aug 21, 2010

fotch

Just bad experience on my part. I dropped a couple of plastic bottles in my time. My darkroom has a tiled floor, and luckily the bottles were still closed. They had a dent that was easy to straighten out, but a glass bottle would have broken and would have made a mess. Maybe I'm just of the clumsy type.

RalphLambrecht · Aug 21, 2010

hrst said:
...

Keys to prevent poisoning are;
1) Marking the bottles with appropriate labels,
2) Keeping the bottles out of the reach of children, pets etc.

So, just using "photo store" bottles and blaming soda bottle users on the Internet is very false security! It is not enough, if you really are anxious about this. ...

hrst

When it comes to safety, there are no compromises. Food containers are inappropriate as chemical containers!
Your recommendation is based on false economy and very dangerous!

Guys
Spend the extra $ and be safe, otherwise, you might never forgive yourself.

RalphLambrecht · Aug 21, 2010

hrst

I usually don't respond to insulting posts, and this is my last post on this subject, but due to your questionable recommendations, it's worth repeating the following:

I strongly recommend against using food containers for chemical storage due to possibly confusing them with containers containing food.

My recommendation is reflected in the following Kodak publication:
'Safe Handling of Photographic Processing Chemicals · J-98A'

You'll find it here:
http://www.kodak.com/eknec/documents/11/0900688a800f8111/J98AENG.pdf

On page 5, you'll find the following quote:

• Use the proper containers—
photographic processing chemicals should only be stored in the containers in which they were originally delivered. Do not transfer chemicals into any other containers.

All the best and be safe!

fschifano · Aug 22, 2010

Well, I've dropped a Boston Round or two and I did not like cleaning up the glass shards. There's always a small one that got left behind to get you. I don't need an avoidable cut or glass splinter to remove. I've enough scars already from stupid s**t like that.

Lanline · Aug 22, 2010

I use empty boxed wine containers. I rinse the bladder out and dry it. I can get significant life out of D-76 this way. For stop, fix and hypo clear... I use clear plastic 1 gallon chemical bottles I bought at a closeout store. Prior to that I used old whiskey bottles.

** I REVERSE THE WINE BOX AND LABEL IT POISON. Any other bottles are clearly marked with bright labels.***

Curt · Aug 22, 2010

RalphLambrecht said:
When I started out, I bought a set of 6 brown 2-liter bottles to store working solutions and a set of beakers ranging from 30 ml to 2 liter to mix chemicals. Add more as required. To keep things simple (and improve fixing) you can use film-strength fixer for paper, but avoid using the same solution for both.

That sounds almost exactly what I did all those years ago and it's still great advice now. Keep it simple and the process will tell you what you need as you go. By that it will become appearent what you need. Add only as needed to avoid the clutter.

Good luck,
Curt

fotch · Aug 22, 2010

I guess I have been lucky not to drop any bottles. Treat them like cameras or babies and be careful. Still, accidents happen. If I start getting the clumsy with bottles, I may go back to the plastic photo type bottles.

Chriscc123 · Aug 22, 2010

well all this is things to think about, on to my next question, 1. stop, fix, photoflo, and hypo? 2. how long do do powders last (i have 2 unopened ilford cibachrome-a p-30p possessing kits maybe from 2000ish maybe) 3. i also have a almost full bottle of edwal shortstop, also maybe from 2000ish... it still smells as acidy as ever (apparently its double strength?) is it maybe still good? and some tmax devo witch is just as old.... should i just chuck it?

fschifano · Aug 22, 2010

Chriscc123 said:
well all this is things to think about, on to my next question, 1. stop, fix, photoflo, and hypo? 2. how long do do powders last (i have 2 unopened ilford cibachrome-a p-30p possessing kits maybe from 2000ish maybe) 3. i also have a almost full bottle of edwal shortstop, also maybe from 2000ish... it still smells as acidy as ever (apparently its double strength?) is it maybe still good? and some tmax devo witch is just as old.... should i just chuck it?

I don't know about the Cibachrome chemistry, so I'll only hazard a guess that it's ok. Dry chemicals seem to last a long time if unopened.

But before we go on, let's get the terminology straight. Fixer is also known as hypo. In earlier times, sodium thiosulfate (the active ingredient in standard fixers) was referred to as hyposufite of soda, and that got shortened to "hypo". All to often these days, I see people calling a hypo clearing agent like Kodak's "Hypo Clearing Agent", Heico's "Perma Wash", Ilford's "Wash-Aid", Sprint's "ARCHIVE ® FIXER REMOVER" and various other brands of what is essentially not much more than sodium sulfite. Kodak supplies theirs as a powder. Ilford, Heico, and Sprint supply it as a liquid concentrate. I'm assuming from your usage you mean some sort of hypo clearing agent when you use the word "hypo". Anyway, a 10 year old liquid concentrate of anything, especially something that loves oxygen as much as sodium sulfite does, is likely to be bad by now. The dry stuff will probably be good. Stop bath and PhotoFlo have indefinite shelf lives, so no worry there. Kodaks "Indicator Stop Bath" is very strong. Two ounces will make a gallon of working strength stop bath. Photoflo should be diluted at least 1+200, and ou can often mix a weaker dilution thatn that and still have a very effective wetting agent. It depends on the hardness of your water supply. I wouldn't trust the TMax developer for the same reason. It's a liquid concentrate and they don't last nearly as long as a dry powdered developer.

Iwagoshi · Aug 22, 2010

Chriscc123 said:
2. how long do do powders last (i have 2 unopened ilford cibachrome-a p-30p possessing kits maybe from 2000ish maybe)

The P30P is toast, send it to me so I can dispose of it properly.

With regard to wine bottles, imo a complete waste of space, big bottles that only hold .75 liter.

Chriscc123 · Aug 22, 2010

it seems that powdered anything last a long time unopened but what about opened?

RobertV · Aug 22, 2010

Chriscc123 said:
it seems that powdered anything last a long time unopened but what about opened?

With powdered developers you make a stock, use all content of the bag. The lifetime of the stock depends on:
1) Type of developer
2) The usage of tap water (quality) or destilled water (demi- or R.O. water)
3) Temperature of storage
4) Diffusion of oxygen, type of bottle

D76/ID11 will be 6-12 months
Xtol will be 6-8 months but much less if you had "bad" tap water.
Diafine 12-18 months (when using destilled water)

Some liquid developers (concentrates) have a very long lifetime:
Rodinal (based on para-amino phenol) > 5 years
HC-110 (contains no water) 4-5 years

Just to mention some popular developers.

hrst · Aug 22, 2010

Ilfochrome developer is just like other BW developers in terms of shelf life. It has never been all-powdered, is it? IIRC the part having developing agent has always been liquid and it has a shelf life of maybe 3-4 years or something like that, unopened, and 6 months or so if opened. I've seen the bleach last for 10 years when not mixed. Fixer is just like any fixer --

Fixers usually last about 3-4 years unopened, unused. You can see when it's bad if there is yellow precipitate, or if it smells bad. If the fixer is partly used, it goes much faster. You should change it every 6 months or so IMO.

Regarding the bottle types, I believe that people have common sense to make the correct decisions, and I hope that most take the safety seriously, instead of using it just as a tool in internet discussion rhetorics. Label your bottles, store them in safe place -- and then be safe! Trust your common sense more if it conflicts with some Internet discussions. Don't believe in magic bullets such as "Boston Brown Chemical Bottle". After all, you have the responsibility. You cannot give it up just by a simple product selection.

RalphLambrecht · Aug 22, 2010

hrst said:
... After all, you have the responsibility. You cannot give it up just by a simple product selection.

Correct, but you can make sure not to make an inappropriate product selection guided by false economy. Keep food containers for food and chemical containers for chemicals. Better safe than sorry!

tkamiya · Aug 22, 2010

I am sure everybody has thought about safety and everybody has different level of what is deemed "safe" depending on individual circumstances, such as family members, location of storage, etc, etc, etc. Yeah, there is no such thing as 100% safe.

Here's my practice:

I store all chemicals in brown plastic bottle purchased from Adorama. While I use kitchen grade measuring cups, they are distinctly different shape, size, and feel than ones I use in kitchen. I never bring any food or drink into my darkroom.

Here's my reasoning:

While the only persons who has access is myself and possibly my girlfriend, and rarely visitors, there is one person I can not eliminate from this equation. ME! I am usually very careful and every intentional handling of anything photographic is deliberate. But, what happens if the access isn't deliberate? Maybe I'm distracted or didn't even think and reached to something?? Maybe I'm preoccupied with something very important? Or - I forgot and left my bottle in bathroom? (where my sink is)

To me, safety comes from making these chemical storage look and feel as different as I can make it from anything else. They are clearly labeled. They look different. They feel different to touch. They are stored in certain locations. That way, if I don't catch it one way, I have other ways that will alert me before I take that big swig!

I am professionally trained in certain field (not chemistry or photography but potentially deadly). I have seen and done some myself, make careless errors. Each time, I was either not expecting or falsely thought I covered all the basis - except I forgot something. If something else was wrong, I'd be dead by now. I've also seen my share of industrial accidents. (one including a whole arm arm flying off!)

Anyway, that's my process and reasoning. Your mileage may vary. Tax, tag, and title extra. Void where prohibited by law.

hrst · Aug 22, 2010

Hello there Ralph, didn't you just say you won't post more about this subject?

Please don't build a straw man. I exactly pointed out why using beverage bottles have nothing to do with economy, so please don't use it as your argument. If the same bottles would be available at higher price as a photochemical bottles, I would buy them. Please read what I said, and consider it, or at least keep your promise about not posting on this. It would be much better that way, it seems -- sorry.

The product selection suggested by me is 100% appropriate with the precautions mentioned. Furthermore, the precautions I mentioned are not in any way specific to my product suggestion only, but the same points has to be taken to account with any product selection.

May I ask you what exactly is your agenda here? It clearly isn't safety, since you are clearly wrong in safety points and support them just by building straw men about my arguments or using simply false statements or misquotes. For example, the Kodak quote you gave discuss about not transferring the concentrates to another bottles of any kind; that includes as well your Boston Brown Chemical Bottle! So, this argument was totally out of context. What are you trying to achieve?

Your wrong statements are so problematic here, that I have to clarify once again;

Used beverage PET bottles are excellent for storing normal photographic solutions because of their properties like compressibility and especially good cap design. They don't pose any safety risks at darkroom if used correctly. Label your chemicals correctly and store away from children, regardless of bottle type you choose.

"Better safe than sorry" has zero meaning as an argument; you can argue anything with it. There is no single evidence that bottle type, or the original content, would in any way promote the risk of accidental usage. I'm really sure that most people can make their decision - a right decision - with their common sense.

I won't answer anymore to your posts on this subject to save you from this unpleasant situation, and yes, I'll keep my promise .

hrst · Aug 22, 2010

tkamiya,

In fact, your practice and reasoning sounds just fine.

Now, as I have been giving extra careful tips, when trying to agree with Mr. Lambrecht as much as possible to see his point of view, without success, I have to add, that in reality, common photo chemicals including developer, stop bath, fixer etc., are not so dangerous. Not all people have kids or pets at home, and most photochemicals do not contain "toxic" chemicals at all, or contain only low amounts. Hydroquinone in developers is probably one of the scariest things, and it has usually concentration of a few grams per liter. Now, to reach the LD50 value of HQ, you would need to drink about 5-10 liters of developer. Of course, much lower amounts than LD50 are definitely not safe, and I don't suggest drinking or even tasting these solutions a bit, but just to put thing to perspective!

OTOH, hydroquinone is used in some skin creams at much higher concentrations than in developers -- certainly not wise, but some people use them! Hydroquinone also diffuse through the skin. But, as the amounts are very low, using protective gloves with paper developer is only recommended, not "compulsory".

For example, even if your measurement cups you use in your darkroom got mixed up with kitchenware, there wouldn't be even a slightest danger - you probably rinse them, and residual amount of darkroom chemicals is in the order of 10^-10 of being dangerous. Even if you didn't rinse them, it wouldn't cause any harm! .... and again, I'm not suggesting to use kitchenware for photographic chemicals, but just some risk analysis!

fotch · Aug 22, 2010

hrst, you really got a hang up on this bottle thing. Attacking others with a different opinion is now leading you to bold face your arguments. Give it up already, take two aspirin and take a nap.

fotch · Aug 22, 2010

tkamiya, a very thoughtful post, well said.

tkamiya · Aug 22, 2010

Yes, I agree..... all the chemicals is very non-toxic.... Heck, toilet bowl cleaners are far more toxic than anything I'd ever use in my darkroom. If they were, I'd be using far more stringent procedures and even consider not doing it at home.

But I really don't want to drink my re-used fixer or any other chemicals even accidentally. While it won't kill me, it'll probably make me throw up and lose appetite for at least a day. My practice at this level really isn't based on if it's lethal. It's based on "it's not food!" and "I don't want to drink it by mistake! Ever!!"

If I wanted bad testing food, I would go to some of our local food establishments. :munch::munch::munch:

Since "under-kill" is better than "over-kill", I continue to use my process.

hrst · Aug 22, 2010

fotch said:
hrst, you really got a hang up on this bottle thing.

Bottles do not mean anything special to me; I'm just stating the facts as they are. But thank you for your solicitude! PM sent with a bit more considerations.

Home Chemistry Storage Confusion

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