Here we go...brand new to staining developers and I have questions...

[jstraw]

Ok, my foray into staining developers will begin this afternoon with my first use of 510-Pyro and a roll of 120 HP5+. I'm extrapolating a development time for 120 at 68 degrees from the MDC's time for 35mm at 70. This is for standard 1:100 dilution. Later I will be dealing with other dilutions for semi-stand and DBI.

Questions:

Is it bad to let staining developers contact skin? Should I wear gloves when using them?

When doing film speed and development time tests, do stained negatives have a whole different set of target densities than do non-stained negatives?

Thanks in advance for any information.

 

[Alex Hawley]

Michael, I have no experience with 510 pyro so I can only answer your first question. Yes, you should wear gloves. The various pyro compounds are easily absorbed through the skin.

In the meantime until someone more knowledgeable in densitometry comes along, take look at this article on staining developers by Sandy King.

 

[aldevo]

510-pyro and other staining agents do contain very toxic agents. But they may be used safely with relatively simple precautions

1) Wear rubber gloves (thick rubber dishwashing gloves or nitrile rubber gloves are best - don't use food-handler plastic gloves)

2) Wear eye proctection (goggles are easy to obtain)

3) If you get splashed then simply wash off the affected area thoroughly.

4) Always wash the area in which you worked thoroughly (i.e. counter tops, etc.)

5) Always read any instructions packaged with the solutions or powder kits. If any special safety considerations apply, you need to be aware of them.

If you are comfortable with following these steps and like the results - there's certainly no reason not to use them. I use them quite frequently.

 

[jstraw]

I appreciate these answers. Are latex gloves not appropriate?

 

[fhovie]

I would avoid latex - you may become alergic to them after repeated exposure and they are not a very good barrier to the organic toxins you will be in contact with in 510 Pyro - which I do use sometimes. I use the Nitrile gloves and am very careful about contact - splashing and dust in my lungs - don't play games with this stuff. OTOH - it is no more toxic than other types of chemicals we come in contact with from time to time - some of these toxins actually can be found as waste products in our own bodies in very tiny ammounts. Just be careful.

 

[jstraw]

I just processed that first roll and the good news is there are images so apparently I didn't completely screw up either mixing the kit or using it. I used latex gloves because I have some but I'll be purchasing better gloves.

I don't know what I was expecting the negs to look like being "stained," having never laid eyes on a stained neg before. I guess I thought the shadow areas would be more opaque from stain. They look pretty normal if a tad thin...but then I really don't know if my development time was adequate. The overall color oof the emulsion is more olive and less cold-blue as one would normally see from HP5+.

I used several changes of water as a stop bath instead of using an acid stop bath and I used kodak rapid fix for 5 minutes followed by 2 minutes in Hustler Rapid Bath and 20 changes of water to wash, a photoflo dip and squeegee and now they're drying. I'd appreciate any feedback on the procedures I've described.

I retained the used developer pending advice from you all about how to dispose of staining developers. Any guidance?

 

[Tom Hoskinson]

Nitrile gloves are best (SafeSkins are what I use). You can buy them from pharmacies and on the internet.

 

[glbeas]

I actually put sodium carbonate in Kodak Rapid fix till it stops fizzing to create an alkaline fix. I don't know how much acid it would take to kill the stain to any degree but why risk any if thats why you want to use that particular developer.
Also using a soak in used developer to increase stain is no longer recommended as it only increases the overall stain, you could liken it to the base fog, and only increases the printing times without improving the quality of the negative.

 

[glbeas]

Nitrile gloves are best (SafeSkins are what I use). You can buy them from pharmacies and on the internet.

You can buy them at Home Depot, and I would assume any other hardware outlet, in the paint department and scattered around in other pertinant departments. Much cheaper that way.

 

[Alex Hawley]

Mike, I think 5 minutes in rapid fix is a bit too much for a conventional film like HP5. My experience is that 2 minutes works fine. Films typically clear in about 30 seconds so even 2 minutes is plenty.

 

[jstraw]

Question for Gary and Alex:

So I'm clobbering the stain with too much time in an acid fix and I should consider an alkaline fix and making sure I'm not exceeding time-to-clear x 2?

Gary, I don't know what you meant about a soak in used developer. I didn't do that.

 

[Alex Hawley]

Question for Gary and Alex:

So I'm clobbering the stain with too much time in an acid fix and I should consider an alkaline fix and making sure I'm not exceeding time-to-clear x 2?

Not in my opinion. I used Ilford Rapid Fix for years and will go back to it next time I need some.

 

[jstraw]

Not in my opinion. I used Ilford Rapid Fix for years and will go back to it next time I need some.

Then I'm a bit confused. What were you concerned about with my long fixing time, Alex?

 

[Alex Hawley]

Then I'm a bit confused. What were you concerned about with my long fixing time, Alex?

My concern is that you first, get the fixer washed out, second, not clobbering the stain. Typically, 5 minutes or so is needed, and recommended, for Tmax films. I'm just saying that for a conventional film such as HP-5, it usually clears in less than a minute so a 2 minute fix is plenty sufficient. You can get into problems with weakening the stain, but I can't say at what point you will do that.

 

[Tom Hoskinson]

Question for Gary and Alex:

So I'm clobbering the stain with too much time in an acid fix and I should consider an alkaline fix and making sure I'm not exceeding time-to-clear x 2?

Gary, I don't know what you meant about a soak in used developer. I didn't do that.

A good rule with any fixer (acid, neutral or alkaline) is to fix for twice the time it takes your fixer to fully clear that particular type of film. T grain films often require a longer time to clear than non - T grain films.

Soaking developed film in the used developer may increase the overall stain level - this is not helpful and thus, no longer is a recommended practice.

Use of acidic stop baths and acidic fixers with staining developers has been shown to have little or no effect on the stain.

The primary reason for using an alkaline rapid fixer is faster fixing with more soluble fixing byproducts. Fast fixing with an alkaline rapid fixer enables easier washing to archival standards (with less water required). This is particularily helpful when processing fiber based prints.

 

[Alex Hawley]

Gary, I don't know what you meant about a soak in used developer. I didn't do that.

Just to amplify what Gary and Tom said on this, re-soaking in the used developer used to be recommended for PMK pyro. However, that practice is no longer recommended.

 

[jstraw]

Thanks guys.

I have a print up in the gallery:

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

 

[mrtoml]

I use an alkaline environment with staining developers. I thought this was advantageous. This is what is says on the monochrome photography website with respect to their Prescysol developer (which is what I use):

"Staining developers work best in an alkaline environment. (Anyway, plunging your delicate negatives into an acid stop bath and fix is tantamount to cruelty; besides reducing the staining, you are under real threat of dissolving away those translucent highlights you worked so hard for.) I therefore recommend the use of our alkaline fix."

Is this not true? Are they just trying to sell their alkaline fix and stop which are both pretty expensive?

Although I will say that I am very happy with the results of following their instructions.

 

[Jed Freudenthal]

I use an alkaline environment with staining developers. I thought this was advantageous. This is what is says on the monochrome photography website with respect to their Prescysol developer (which is what I use):

"Staining developers work best in an alkaline environment. (Anyway, plunging your delicate negatives into an acid stop bath and fix is tantamount to cruelty; besides reducing the staining, you are under real threat of dissolving away those translucent highlights you worked so hard for.) I therefore recommend the use of our alkaline fix."

Is this not true? Are they just trying to sell their alkaline fix and stop which are both pretty expensive?

Although I will say that I am very happy with the results of following their instructions.

I am unaware of the composition of the Prescyol developer, but I guess it is a staining pyrogallol developer. But there are many of them arouind with different kinds of stain. Some are stable, some are not stable in an acidic environment. Therefore it is always good to have an alkaline stop and fix. But take a slightly alkaline fix; otherwise other problems may arise ( Agfa calls it neutral fix). In the film developing cookbook the TF3 (new version, with 5 g sodium metaborate) is such a fix you can make yourself. The old TF3 was too alkaline, and has been modified.

Jed

 

[mrtoml]

I am unaware of the composition of the Prescyol developer, but I guess it is a staining pyrogallol developer. But there are many of them arouind with different kinds of stain. Some are stable, some are not stable in an acidic environment. Therefore it is always good to have an alkaline stop and fix. But take a slightly alkaline fix; otherwise other problems may arise ( Agfa calls it neutral fix). In the film developing cookbook the TF3 (new version, with 5 g sodium metaborate) is such a fix you can make yourself. The old TF3 was too alkaline, and has been modified.

Jed

Thanks for the info. Prescysol contains catechol. That's all I know - if this helps explain anything. The manufacturers recommend their own alkali stop and fix which I have been using so I was just curious about whether it is actually necessary (after reading this thread). The alkali fix is a slight pain because it requires constant agitation for several minutes. I'm not complaining about the results at all and will gladly pay the price for alkali fix if it's necessary.

 

[glbeas]

Question for Gary and Alex:

Gary, I don't know what you meant about a soak in used developer. I didn't do that.

Thats the only reason I know of to save used staining developer. I haven't heard of any problems regarding disposal of it. What were you told?

 

[Ole]

The alkali fix is a slight pain because it requires constant agitation for several minutes. I'm not complaining about the results at all and will gladly pay the price for alkali fix if it's necessary.

That's why I have invested in a magnetic stirrer. I fill it up with everything for my alkaline fix (OF-1) except the alkali, turn it on, and go off for a cup of coffee while it does the work.

 

[jstraw]

Thats the only reason I know of to save used staining developer. I haven't heard of any problems regarding disposal of it. What were you told?

Haven't been told anything. That's why I haven't made any decisions about disposal. I'm on septic so I'm careful about such things. I can save it for the county's monthly, free hazardous wast disposal. I take my fixer to a lab with a silver recovery unit.

I have TF4 coming so I'll be forgoing the use of Rapid Fixer for the Pyro.

 

[Jed Freudenthal]

Thanks for the info. Prescysol contains catechol. That's all I know - if this helps explain anything. The manufacturers recommend their own alkali stop and fix which I have been using so I was just curious about whether it is actually necessary (after reading this thread). The alkali fix is a slight pain because it requires constant agitation for several minutes. I'm not complaining about the results at all and will gladly pay the price for alkali fix if it's necessary.

In my opinion, you can use other alkaline stop and fixers as well. Moreover, I do not understand the constant agitation for several minutes. In a fresh (new) TF3, the negatives will clear within 30 seconds without all that agitation.

Jed

 

[JBrunner]

I use TF4 for PMKwith much success.. Acid is said not only to affect stain, but can cause pinholes. Of course this is subject to the normal discission.

I recently started using WD2D+ and it turned my fixer orange. Still trying to figure that one out.