Help with sudden staining on RA4 Prints?

[legstowalkmyself]

I never had staining until i changed to this new developer replenisher by champion. Formerly i was using belini kit, adox or the arista kit. When i started using the champion stuff and the filtration totally changed entirely unlike before and i started to get this consistent staining yellow and cyan around the edges or sometimes staining the whole sheet yellowish. I never had to use a stop bath but when i did its a bit better but still stains. The blix i use is still Bellini. Any help with this issue? Thank you!

Gear and Workflow
Beseler 23Cii
Fuji DPii 8x10
Beseler 8x10 Drum

60ml in drum @ 93degrees of Developer
60ml in drum @ 93degrees of Blix
Wash & Dry

 

[legstowalkmyself]

dev is in drum for 1:00min
and blix is in for 1:30min

 

[mshchem]

Try stop bath between dev and blix

 

[mshchem]

Another thing is you can try using a bit more, like 100mL of each solution.

You need to prewet in a drum too.

I started printing with a drum (stainless steel) that floated in 100°F water bath, 5 solutions, 7 minutes. c. 1973.

 

[koraks]

Cyan staining is virtually always a problem with blix contamination in the developer. It takes only a little to destroy the developer. Try mixing some fresh developer that has not been in contact with any bottles etc. that you used for the developer up to this point.

With drums, you really should be using a stop bath. Also, a likely source of contamination of the developer is blix that lingers in the light trap of the drum. You need to rinse the drums really, really well before the next development run.

 

[F4U]

Not intending to sound obtuse, my own first reaction would be to thoroughly wash out my equipment and switch back to what worked for me. Color silver-based photography was always hit and miss, especially with all these third party manufacturers of supplies. I spent my whole professional life in color in a similar field to photography. To this day I can't say I ever once made a perfect color match to suit me. The moral being, if you HAD something satisfactory to you with what you WERE using, then go back to buying that same supply. What i'm seeing here, even on a computer screen is entirely unacceptable. Throw the new chemistry out in the driveway and buy fresh of what you were using.

 

[koraks]

Color silver-based photography was always hit and miss

That's a very puzzling and rather tendentious remark, which is factually incorrect too, at least when applied to the color materials used in the last 50-60 years or so. Of course, photographer's/printer's expertise is certainly hit & miss. The human is the weakest link in this chain. There's really no reason to cast doubt on color photography as a concept. It's robust.

And as said, this looks like a fairly simple contamination problem. It's possible that the Bellini developer contains fewer or no chelating agents that are present in e.g. Fuji chemistry (and perhaps also Champion; IDK). These can to a (very limited) extent protect against very minor contamination of the developer with blix, making it conceivable that a process problem that already existed went unnoticed before.

 

[mshchem]

I thought that Champion was defunct? IDK,

 

[koraks]

I thought that Champion was defunct? IDK,

I think they still operate (?) but only in/from Malaysia. They used to have representation elsewhere on the planet (Canada?) but that office/location shut down a few years ago. Going from memory here; maybe @MattKing can comment. Either way, Bellini's products are generally excellent and there are no regular complaints with their current product lineup that I'm aware of.

 

[brbo]

Double check that you mixed your developer correctly*.

Use stop! (In my experience it's essential, at least with drums).

If you don't need to economize heavily on the developer, don't use pre-wash. You will need a bit more developer to prevent streaking, but I get distinctively better whites when I don't pre-wash**.


* When I switched from Kodak RA-4 chemistry to Fuji I got horrible cyan/yellow cast, because I didn't buy proper developer starter for Fuji chemistry as I thought I'd use leftover Kodak starter in the same amount as with Kodak chemistry. Turned out that Fuji chemistry needed about four times the amount of the starter.

** Some paper will be more affected by this (with what I have observed, Maxima the most, DPII and Fujiflex much less). It also depends on the age of the paper. And also on use of the stop. Now I mix at least 3% acetic stop to preserve the whites. I'm pretty anal about whites, so... maybe others would never notice the difference.

 

[legstowalkmyself]

Not intending to sound obtuse, my own first reaction would be to thoroughly wash out my equipment and switch back to what worked for me. Color silver-based photography was always hit and miss, especially with all these third party manufacturers of supplies. I spent my whole professional life in color in a similar field to photography. To this day I can't say I ever once made a perfect color match to suit me. The moral being, if you HAD something satisfactory to you with what you WERE using, then go back to buying that same supply. What i'm seeing here, even on a computer screen is entirely unacceptable. Throw the new chemistry out in the driveway and buy fresh of what you were using.

I would if I could go back but Bellini kit has been sold out unfortunately for a little while now

 

[mshchem]

I think they still operate (?) but only in/from Malaysia. They used to have representation elsewhere on the planet (Canada?) but that office/location shut down a few years ago. Going from memory here; maybe @MattKing can comment. Either way, Bellini's products are generally excellent and there are no regular complaints with their current product lineup that I'm aware of.

Yes, Bellini is excellent and a well established provider. I like that we seem to have some excellent choices today. Kodak brand, Adox, Bellini etc.

My recommendation is don't focus on economy and try to squeeze every print possible per liter. At least not until you have a rhythm and the volume.

 

[legstowalkmyself]

Cyan staining is virtually always a problem with blix contamination in the developer. It takes only a little to destroy the developer. Try mixing some fresh developer that has not been in contact with any bottles etc. that you used for the developer up to this point.

With drums, you really should be using a stop bath. Also, a likely source of contamination of the developer is blix that lingers in the light trap of the drum. You need to rinse the drums really, really well before the next development run.

So strange because I did a test with everything washed and newly mixed but still same issue, it should of not been possible to get contamination. When I try a stop bath again

 

[koraks]

You're right that freshly mixed and no potential for getting any blix in there should have avoided this problem. See if the stop bath makes a difference. Champion chemistry is marketed primarily for commercial labs; if their chemistry would suffer from serious flaws like this, I'm sure they would be in massive trouble. Not that I can explain this even if the developer is heavily expired, but was it old stock, by any chance?

 

[legstowalkmyself]

Double check that you mixed your developer correctly*.

Use stop! (In my experience it's essential, at least with drums).

If you don't need to economize heavily on the developer, don't use pre-wash. You will need a bit more developer to prevent streaking, but I get distinctively better whites when I don't pre-wash**.


* When I switched from Kodak RA-4 chemistry to Fuji I got horrible cyan/yellow cast, because I didn't buy proper developer starter for Fuji chemistry as I thought I'd use leftover Kodak starter in the same amount as with Kodak chemistry. Turned out that Fuji chemistry needed about four times the amount of the starter.

** Some paper will be more affected by this (with what I have observed, Maxima the most, DPII and Fujiflex much less). It also depends on the age of the paper. And also on use of the stop. Now I mix at least 3% acetic stop to preserve the whites. I'm pretty anal about whites, so... maybe others would never notice the difference.

I have 5% white vinegar and I dilate it 1:4 to get get it to 2% acidity, does that make sense? I can't remember where i got that info from. How should I dilute 5% white vinegar

 

[legstowalkmyself]

You're right that freshly mixed and no potential for getting any blix in there should have avoided this problem. See if the stop bath makes a difference. Champion chemistry is marketed primarily for commercial labs; if their chemistry would suffer from serious flaws like this, I'm sure they would be in massive trouble. Not that I can explain this even if the developer is heavily expired, but was it old stock, by any chance?

There's no date on the chem, it definitely could just be expired. I'll do some test tonight

 

[halfaman]

A stop bath prevents any carryover of the developer to further steps that, in my case, produces punctual and bit random stains in the print, not as general as shown by the OP. But it is also very simple and inexpensive to try.

 

[brbo]

I have 5% white vinegar and I dilate it 1:4 to get get it to 2% acidity, does that make sense? I can't remember where i got that info from. How should I dilute 5% white vinegar

I would worry about the developer first. So, check again that you're adding proper amount of replenisher, water and starter to get your working strength developer.

 

[legstowalkmyself]

I would worry about the developer first. So, check again that you're adding proper amount of replenisher, water and starter to get your working strength developer.

I dont add starter just use replenisher, should I use both? It says I can use just water and developer

 

[brbo]

I dont add starter just use replenisher, should I use both? It says I can use just water and developer

According to this you should.

 

[koraks]

I dont add starter just use replenisher

Oh! That's not good. Replenisher is not a ready-to-go developer.

 

[legstowalkmyself]

According to this you should.

My god i feel like an idiot, I've been looking for that forever cuz the bottles themselves just have 10L ratio with water and starter. I just convert it to 1L. I have some ektacolor replensisher I'll try with it. Idk if mixing brands matter

 

[legstowalkmyself]

Oh! That's not good. Replenisher is not a ready-to-go developer.

The bottle itself said it was fine and I called the company to make sure... strange

 

[koraks]

The bottle itself said it was fine

Well, it explicitly states it's a replenisher:

The key differences between a developer and a developer-replenisher are that the latter:
* has a higher concentration of developing agents
* has a lower concentration of dissolved halides (specifically chloride in the case of RA4).
Furthermore, the pH may be slightly different for a replenisher.

There are two ways to make a working-strength developer from a replenisher:
1: add the required amount of starter and water as per the manufacturer's instructions
2: add the required amount of water and season the developer by running a volume of unprocessed paper through it. It's hard to tell how much exactly, but you should see the printing characteristics stabilize after a certain volume at which point the developer could be replenished with the replenisher upon continued use.
Option #1 is simpler, more consistent and when using drums also the more sensible approach.

 

[legstowalkmyself]

Well, it explicitly states it's a replenisher:
View attachment 405075

The key differences between a developer and a developer-replenisher are that the latter:
* has a higher concentration of developing agents
* has a lower concentration of dissolved halides (specifically chloride in the case of RA4).
Furthermore, the pH may be slightly different for a replenisher.

There are two ways to make a working-strength developer from a replenisher:
1: add the required amount of starter and water as per the manufacturer's instructions
2: add the required amount of water and season the developer by running a volume of unprocessed paper through it. It's hard to tell how much exactly, but you should see the printing characteristics stabilize after a certain volume at which point the developer could be replenished with the replenisher upon continued use.
Option #1 is simpler, more consistent and when using drums also the more sensible approach.

So why doesn't it say add starter on the bottle just water? Sorry im new to all this and I really appreciate you teaching me how this works