Help with sudden staining on RA4 Prints?

legstowalkmyself · Aug 10, 2025

I never had staining until i changed to this new developer replenisher by champion. Formerly i was using belini kit, adox or the arista kit. When i started using the champion stuff and the filtration totally changed entirely unlike before and i started to get this consistent staining yellow and cyan around the edges or sometimes staining the whole sheet yellowish. I never had to use a stop bath but when i did its a bit better but still stains. The blix i use is still Bellini. Any help with this issue? Thank you!

Gear and Workflow
Beseler 23Cii
Fuji DPii 8x10
Beseler 8x10 Drum

60ml in drum @ 93degrees of Developer
60ml in drum @ 93degrees of Blix
Wash & Dry

legstowalkmyself · Aug 10, 2025

dev is in drum for 1:00min
and blix is in for 1:30min

mshchem · Aug 10, 2025

Try stop bath between dev and blix

mshchem · Aug 10, 2025

Another thing is you can try using a bit more, like 100mL of each solution.

You need to prewet in a drum too.

I started printing with a drum (stainless steel) that floated in 100°F water bath, 5 solutions, 7 minutes. c. 1973.

koraks · Aug 11, 2025

Cyan staining is virtually always a problem with blix contamination in the developer. It takes only a little to destroy the developer. Try mixing some fresh developer that has not been in contact with any bottles etc. that you used for the developer up to this point.

With drums, you really should be using a stop bath. Also, a likely source of contamination of the developer is blix that lingers in the light trap of the drum. You need to rinse the drums really, really well before the next development run.

F4U · Aug 11, 2025

Not intending to sound obtuse, my own first reaction would be to thoroughly wash out my equipment and switch back to what worked for me. Color silver-based photography was always hit and miss, especially with all these third party manufacturers of supplies. I spent my whole professional life in color in a similar field to photography. To this day I can't say I ever once made a perfect color match to suit me. The moral being, if you HAD something satisfactory to you with what you WERE using, then go back to buying that same supply. What i'm seeing here, even on a computer screen is entirely unacceptable. Throw the new chemistry out in the driveway and buy fresh of what you were using.

koraks · Aug 11, 2025

F4U said:
Color silver-based photography was always hit and miss

That's a very puzzling and rather tendentious remark, which is factually incorrect too, at least when applied to the color materials used in the last 50-60 years or so. Of course, photographer's/printer's expertise is certainly hit & miss. The human is the weakest link in this chain. There's really no reason to cast doubt on color photography as a concept. It's robust.

And as said, this looks like a fairly simple contamination problem. It's possible that the Bellini developer contains fewer or no chelating agents that are present in e.g. Fuji chemistry (and perhaps also Champion; IDK). These can to a (very limited) extent protect against very minor contamination of the developer with blix, making it conceivable that a process problem that already existed went unnoticed before.

mshchem · Aug 11, 2025

I thought that Champion was defunct? IDK,

koraks · Aug 11, 2025

mshchem said:
I thought that Champion was defunct? IDK,

I think they still operate (?) but only in/from Malaysia. They used to have representation elsewhere on the planet (Canada?) but that office/location shut down a few years ago. Going from memory here; maybe @MattKing can comment. Either way, Bellini's products are generally excellent and there are no regular complaints with their current product lineup that I'm aware of.

brbo · Aug 11, 2025

Double check that you mixed your developer correctly*.

Use stop! (In my experience it's essential, at least with drums).

If you don't need to economize heavily on the developer, don't use pre-wash. You will need a bit more developer to prevent streaking, but I get distinctively better whites when I don't pre-wash**.

* When I switched from Kodak RA-4 chemistry to Fuji I got horrible cyan/yellow cast, because I didn't buy proper developer starter for Fuji chemistry as I thought I'd use leftover Kodak starter in the same amount as with Kodak chemistry. Turned out that Fuji chemistry needed about four times the amount of the starter.

** Some paper will be more affected by this (with what I have observed, Maxima the most, DPII and Fujiflex much less). It also depends on the age of the paper. And also on use of the stop. Now I mix at least 3% acetic stop to preserve the whites. I'm pretty anal about whites, so... maybe others would never notice the difference.

legstowalkmyself · Aug 11, 2025

F4U said:
Not intending to sound obtuse, my own first reaction would be to thoroughly wash out my equipment and switch back to what worked for me. Color silver-based photography was always hit and miss, especially with all these third party manufacturers of supplies. I spent my whole professional life in color in a similar field to photography. To this day I can't say I ever once made a perfect color match to suit me. The moral being, if you HAD something satisfactory to you with what you WERE using, then go back to buying that same supply. What i'm seeing here, even on a computer screen is entirely unacceptable. Throw the new chemistry out in the driveway and buy fresh of what you were using.

I would if I could go back but Bellini kit has been sold out unfortunately for a little while now

mshchem · Aug 11, 2025

koraks said:
I think they still operate (?) but only in/from Malaysia. They used to have representation elsewhere on the planet (Canada?) but that office/location shut down a few years ago. Going from memory here; maybe @MattKing can comment. Either way, Bellini's products are generally excellent and there are no regular complaints with their current product lineup that I'm aware of.

Yes, Bellini is excellent and a well established provider. I like that we seem to have some excellent choices today. Kodak brand, Adox, Bellini etc.

My recommendation is don't focus on economy and try to squeeze every print possible per liter. At least not until you have a rhythm and the volume.

legstowalkmyself · Aug 11, 2025

koraks said:
Cyan staining is virtually always a problem with blix contamination in the developer. It takes only a little to destroy the developer. Try mixing some fresh developer that has not been in contact with any bottles etc. that you used for the developer up to this point.

With drums, you really should be using a stop bath. Also, a likely source of contamination of the developer is blix that lingers in the light trap of the drum. You need to rinse the drums really, really well before the next development run.

So strange because I did a test with everything washed and newly mixed but still same issue, it should of not been possible to get contamination. When I try a stop bath again

koraks · Aug 11, 2025

You're right that freshly mixed and no potential for getting any blix in there should have avoided this problem. See if the stop bath makes a difference. Champion chemistry is marketed primarily for commercial labs; if their chemistry would suffer from serious flaws like this, I'm sure they would be in massive trouble. Not that I can explain this even if the developer is heavily expired, but was it old stock, by any chance?

legstowalkmyself · Aug 11, 2025

brbo said:
Double check that you mixed your developer correctly*.

Use stop! (In my experience it's essential, at least with drums).

If you don't need to economize heavily on the developer, don't use pre-wash. You will need a bit more developer to prevent streaking, but I get distinctively better whites when I don't pre-wash**.

* When I switched from Kodak RA-4 chemistry to Fuji I got horrible cyan/yellow cast, because I didn't buy proper developer starter for Fuji chemistry as I thought I'd use leftover Kodak starter in the same amount as with Kodak chemistry. Turned out that Fuji chemistry needed about four times the amount of the starter.

** Some paper will be more affected by this (with what I have observed, Maxima the most, DPII and Fujiflex much less). It also depends on the age of the paper. And also on use of the stop. Now I mix at least 3% acetic stop to preserve the whites. I'm pretty anal about whites, so... maybe others would never notice the difference.

I have 5% white vinegar and I dilate it 1:4 to get get it to 2% acidity, does that make sense? I can't remember where i got that info from. How should I dilute 5% white vinegar

legstowalkmyself · Aug 11, 2025

koraks said:
You're right that freshly mixed and no potential for getting any blix in there should have avoided this problem. See if the stop bath makes a difference. Champion chemistry is marketed primarily for commercial labs; if their chemistry would suffer from serious flaws like this, I'm sure they would be in massive trouble. Not that I can explain this even if the developer is heavily expired, but was it old stock, by any chance?

There's no date on the chem, it definitely could just be expired. I'll do some test tonight

halfaman · Aug 11, 2025

A stop bath prevents any carryover of the developer to further steps that, in my case, produces punctual and bit random stains in the print, not as general as shown by the OP. But it is also very simple and inexpensive to try.

brbo · Aug 11, 2025

legstowalkmyself said:
I have 5% white vinegar and I dilate it 1:4 to get get it to 2% acidity, does that make sense? I can't remember where i got that info from. How should I dilute 5% white vinegar

I would worry about the developer first. So, check again that you're adding proper amount of replenisher, water and starter to get your working strength developer.

legstowalkmyself · Aug 11, 2025

brbo said:
I would worry about the developer first. So, check again that you're adding proper amount of replenisher, water and starter to get your working strength developer.

I dont add starter just use replenisher, should I use both? It says I can use just water and developer

brbo · Aug 11, 2025

legstowalkmyself said:
I dont add starter just use replenisher, should I use both? It says I can use just water and developer

According to this you should.

koraks · Aug 11, 2025

legstowalkmyself said:
I dont add starter just use replenisher

Oh! That's not good. Replenisher is not a ready-to-go developer.

legstowalkmyself · Aug 11, 2025

brbo said:
According to this you should.

My god i feel like an idiot, I've been looking for that forever cuz the bottles themselves just have 10L ratio with water and starter. I just convert it to 1L. I have some ektacolor replensisher I'll try with it. Idk if mixing brands matter

legstowalkmyself · Aug 11, 2025

koraks said:
Oh! That's not good. Replenisher is not a ready-to-go developer.

The bottle itself said it was fine and I called the company to make sure... strange

koraks · Aug 11, 2025

legstowalkmyself said:
The bottle itself said it was fine

Well, it explicitly states it's a replenisher:

The key differences between a developer and a developer-replenisher are that the latter:
* has a higher concentration of developing agents
* has a lower concentration of dissolved halides (specifically chloride in the case of RA4).
Furthermore, the pH may be slightly different for a replenisher.

There are two ways to make a working-strength developer from a replenisher:
1: add the required amount of starter and water as per the manufacturer's instructions
2: add the required amount of water and season the developer by running a volume of unprocessed paper through it. It's hard to tell how much exactly, but you should see the printing characteristics stabilize after a certain volume at which point the developer could be replenished with the replenisher upon continued use.
Option #1 is simpler, more consistent and when using drums also the more sensible approach.

legstowalkmyself · Aug 11, 2025

koraks said:
Well, it explicitly states it's a replenisher:
View attachment 405075

The key differences between a developer and a developer-replenisher are that the latter:
* has a higher concentration of developing agents
* has a lower concentration of dissolved halides (specifically chloride in the case of RA4).
Furthermore, the pH may be slightly different for a replenisher.

There are two ways to make a working-strength developer from a replenisher:
1: add the required amount of starter and water as per the manufacturer's instructions
2: add the required amount of water and season the developer by running a volume of unprocessed paper through it. It's hard to tell how much exactly, but you should see the printing characteristics stabilize after a certain volume at which point the developer could be replenished with the replenisher upon continued use.
Option #1 is simpler, more consistent and when using drums also the more sensible approach.

So why doesn't it say add starter on the bottle just water? Sorry im new to all this and I really appreciate you teaching me how this works

Help with sudden staining on RA4 Prints?

legstowalkmyself

legstowalkmyself

mshchem

mshchem

koraks

Moderator

F4U

koraks

Moderator

mshchem

koraks

Moderator

brbo

legstowalkmyself

mshchem

legstowalkmyself

koraks

Moderator

legstowalkmyself

legstowalkmyself

halfaman

brbo

legstowalkmyself

brbo

koraks

Moderator

legstowalkmyself

legstowalkmyself

Attachments

koraks

Moderator

legstowalkmyself

Help with sudden staining on RA4 Prints?

Moderator

Moderator

Moderator

Moderator

Moderator

Attachments

Moderator

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency