Help Us Design Our 6x9 Camera

Dave Wooten · Oct 24, 2006

6 x 9 design

Here is a new design presented recently for 6 x 9, helical cones

Dan Fromm · Oct 24, 2006

Ole said:
No you wouldn't. Just think about it for a moment, and you'll see that you won't. You could use wire frames like on old plate cameras - or Speed Graphic's.

Ole, I don't know what they're called, but the FPK's finder is one of those things with a lens in front, a mirror inside, and a lens on top. One looks down into it to compose, not straight ahead. But you're right, on a camera with the film running from one side to the other (the VPK is made to shoot portrait, the film runs from bottom to top) then frames could be made to work. I must work on being more imaginative.

Cheers,

Dan

Jeffrey A. Steinberg · Oct 24, 2006

I would buy a pano in a heartbeat over the technical version. The smaller and lighter I can make it, the more I can take it into the field. And taking "long distance" shots, I don't need to compensate for converging parallel lines like if I was taking smaller architectual shots.

Lighter=more use=more fun=more referals=more sales (IMHO).

--Jeffrey

Matthew Gorringe · Oct 24, 2006

A small, light, cheap(ish) camera would be great.

As far as type goes I think it should have rise if nothing else. Something along the lines of an Alpa SW would be great. I see the Dmax is very much in this vein but with a size of 6x12 it's a bit bigger and heavier than it needs to be. Optical viewfinder and helical mount are probably essential for handheld use. I'd be happy with 6x7 in this size if that helps make it any smaller/lighter. There's heaps of old RB magazines out there that are servicable.

If I was going to ask for my dream camera it would be a folding monorail design like a Technikardan 23 or F-line - only lighter, smaller and cheaper. If there is some way to get the weight under 2kg and have it fit in a samll backpack that would be great. I don't really expect this is possible so something like a limited technical camera at 6x7 size would be good.

Petzi · Oct 24, 2006

I would only buy a MF camera that can take 220 film. Also, make sure the film isn't warped more than necessary in the holder.

MAGNAchrom · Oct 24, 2006

Review Fotoman in MAGNAchrom

I'd be more than happy to review your Fotoman cameras in any of the next issues of MAGNAchrom -- in case you haven't seen it, the premiere issue of MAGNAchrom featured an in-depth review of the Gaoersi 4x5 (which has 25mm of vertical shift). Needless to say, any review I undertake would require an equally in-depth, hands-on look at your technology.

Let me know if you are interested. (btw, MAGNAchrom is free to download, just register and it is yours for the asking)

HerrBremerhaven · Oct 25, 2006

Roll Film Back Options

David A. Goldfarb said:
If you have in mind the Linhof backs for the baby Technikas, those only fit Linhof. They're not Graflok style.

Thanks for the information. I only have a Super Rollex that goes on my 4x5, and have not seen the smaller Linhof backs in person. However, if some semi-standard mounting was made, I do think there are many backs on the market.

This could also work with the larger roll film backs made for 4x5 cameras, giving even more choices. Something like a machined slot with one locking mechanism could work in place of Graflok style sliding bars, which would allow for a lower profile to the camera body. The only downside would be that RB67 backs would need a step-up adapter plate to mount, though I have seen those on EBAY.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
Dead Link Removed

HerrBremerhaven · Oct 25, 2006

Deja-Vu All Over Again

Dave Wooten said:
Here is a new design presented recently for 6 x 9, helical cones

Is it my imagination, or did I see this on EBAY not very long ago? Seems very much like something I saw. Also, this is a little like an ALPA, though with very slight construction differences.

The problem I find with the ALPA is the lack of an accessory shoe mount to place a rangefinder near the viewfinder. Something like the small accessory rangefinders of the 1950s and 1960s era would work, but only if there is a way to mount it. I use a Präzisa on three of my old folder cameras currently.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
Dead Link Removed

gchpaco · Oct 25, 2006

I don't have the GW690, but I have a GL690 with the 65 which is as far as I can tell fairly similar in size. Yeah, it's big, but I find it substantially easier to handhold than my 6x9 folder (as in, almost every negative I shoot with the Fuji is sharp, whereas almost every negative I shoot with the folder has subtle camera shake--even at its maximum speed of 1/200th!).

P C Headland · Oct 25, 2006

I would think as small and light a 6x9 as you can make.

There are plenty of other options out there for larger 6x9s with movements etc. Keep the design as clean as possible, make the camera easy to carry around all day long.

Focusing on wide angle lenses would be my starting point. Ideal would be a focusing mount/system - maybe the mount system could be modular so you could mount either LF lenses or existing MF lenses with the right coverage - for example Mamiya Press lenses.

A nice addition would be an inbuilt finder to accomodate say two or three popular focal lenths (e.g. 65 / 90) and even a non-coupled RF. I'd love it to come with a coupled RF, but this would add weight an complexity.

Oh heck, the ideal (for me, an amateur) would be a Minox 35 / Contax T scaled up to take 6x9 or 6x6 format! Or, having just looked on the net, a modern day Veriwide with user sectable lenses.

MAGNAchrom · Oct 25, 2006

HerrBremerhaven said:
Is it my imagination, or did I see this on EBAY not very long ago? Seems very much like something I saw.

That was the Gaoersi 6x9 you saw -- that model is not selling as well as their other cameras (who knows why? Perhaps because they only support two lenses?). What is interesting is that the proposed Fotoman would compete directly with the Gaoersi 6x9. They even look nearly identical (and perhaps they are). The big difference is that Fotoman has a real honest-to-God distribution network (and thus higher costs), whereas Gaoersi depends upon eBay/PayPal as their storefront.

fotoman · Oct 25, 2006

Thank You All

Great input everyone... please keep it coming. While we would like to address each and every suggestion, time and space do not allow. With each new response the Fotoman 69 is coming closer and closer to conceptual form. We're very pleased at the amount of input and interest, as it confirms the commercial viabilty of a brand new 6x9 camera... assuming it meets the needs and expectations of the majority of potential users.... the reason for this query.

Early Riser · Oct 25, 2006

I already own 3 Fotoman 612 bodies, so I am unlikely to purchase a 6x9 body (unless it used the same cones as the 612) but I can tell you why I bought my Fotoman cameras even though I already own a couple of Fuji gx617 cameras. Size and simplicity. The Fotoman 612 was a good deal smaller than the fuji and is capable of using a wide variety of lenses. The fact that the Fotoman was a simpler design, that is parts that are readily made in a machine shop versus having circuit boards with esoteric parts that could render the camera unrepairable should those chips be out of production, was another consideration.

If I were looking for a 6x8 or 6x9 technical camera I would buy the Alpa system because it's just incredibly made and very well thought out. However I would prefer to buy the 6x9 fotoman panoramic because of simplicity. Are there plans to make a shift adapter for the 6x9? That would enable you to cross into both camps.

Magpie · Oct 25, 2006

My bid would be for a compact camera with an ultra wide angle lens, something like a Super Agulon 47, no movements, roll film in the body not as a removeable back. Therefore it would be compact, light and easy to hand hold - a modern Plaubel Veriwide - but 6x9 rather than 6x10.

eclarke · Oct 25, 2006

Hi Paul,
I think your technical camera has all the proper attributes..Evan Clarke

Dave Wooten · Oct 25, 2006

HerrBremerhaven said:
Is it my imagination, or did I see this on EBAY not very long ago? Seems very much like something I saw. Also, this is a little like an ALPA, though with very slight construction differences.

The problem I find with the ALPA is the lack of an accessory shoe mount to place a rangefinder near the viewfinder. Something like the small accessory rangefinders of the 1950s and 1960s era would work, but only if there is a way to mount it. I use a Präzisa on three of my old folder cameras currently.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
Dead Link Removed

Yes I think you did see it....the design was sent to me about 8 months ago and that is where i received the photographs...the photo sent to me was from Focus Da yi group...it is interesting the interest in China in fine art photography, note the recent sale of very expensive lenses...winning bids are from Chineese photographers and collectors and film photographers!...A good thing indeed!

Bromo33333 · Oct 25, 2006

I'd go for a modern folder for a 6x9 - Nice synthetic bellows, and have it fold down into something nearly pocketable like the old ones.

Youalready have a technical camera - so why not an all in one folder, eh?

George · Oct 25, 2006

No need for a full movements 6x9 little big monster. You'll have much larger market for a small, no coupled rangefinder, 6x9 with changeable lenses. You can beat Alpa not only on the price but first of all on the lens focal length option - go for longer lenses too. You can handheld even a 250mm lens (not available on Alpha or Combo wide.) The wide lenses are an obvious choice but the longer one is only on the Mamiya Press monster et al. A light weight, simple 6x9 can be used by many more amateurs than a full movements beast. And with a simple, multi focal lengths 6x9 you can even attract its users to other Fotoman formats or the technical variant! The longest lens you can use with reasonable precision in a viewfinder is the 300 mm, although that is not so much handholdable. 250 mm is more practical. And please, no red window film advance - just the plain dedicated film advance.

George · Oct 25, 2006

BTW, the new Arca L3r has longer lenses too... but surely not the Fotoman price tag...

HerrBremerhaven · Oct 25, 2006

Ponderings about 6x9 designs

Dave Wooten said:
Yes I think you did see it....the design was sent to me about 8 months ago and that is where i received the photographs...the photo sent to me was from Focus Da yi group...it is interesting the interest in China in fine art photography, note the recent sale of very expensive lenses...winning bids are from Chineese photographers and collectors and film photographers!...A good thing indeed!

Okay, so I did remember that correctly. Someone else posted about the Gaoersi 6x9; perhaps Da Yi and Gaoersi are closely related. I know what you mean about photography interest in China, though I think that is a good thing. About the only bad part of this is that used large format lens prices are slightly higher than last year.

Now for some really weird stuff. I did a mock-up test with a nicer lens grafted to an extra 6x9 folder body. Basically just enough to prove the concept. This was nice and light weight, with the pressed steel folder body, and fairly compact. The problems were critical focus, and advancing film using a red window. The focus could have been helped with an accurately marked helical lensmount, and an accessory shoe rangefinder. I didn't have any good solution to the red window film advance, so I started looking at adapting roll film backs to such a set-up. However, I think a dedicated body is the part that is needed to make that a reality.

While a dedicated body to mount a lens and film back would make a bulkier and heavier camera, in reality it would still be relatively light. The problem would then be balance and erognomics, since a roll film back can weigh more than many large format lenses. So other than my time, I got hung up on hand grip design and positioning. I don't know if I could do a one-off better than a dedicated company, and I would be much better off just buying some close to ready to go solution.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
Dead Link Removed

Dave Wooten · Oct 25, 2006

Gordon, it certainly doesnt hurt to put you mind to design etc. A simple concept is to take a graflox back...4 x 5 from an old press camera, mount in on a wooden frame board and you have you back set up complete with ground glass...remove the GG and a lot of backs will fit, the old singer and graflex, 6 x 6 - 6 x 9 the 6 x 12 backs fitting the international etc and the Da Yi, Focus ets backs including their 6 x 17! It is quite easy at 90 mm focal length to get good depth and focus and 6 x 17 coveraqge.

Karl K · Oct 25, 2006

I agree with Magpie. Make it simple and relatively affordable. I'd want a 6x12 or 6x9 format with either a 90mm or 65mm lens. Perhaps both formats and both lenses if it's cost effective. Zone focus or guesstimate focus is fine. A brightline finder would be nice. 120/220 film capability, without any kind of coupling to the shutter. No backs to change, just flip a counter switch and rotate the pressure plate. Where do I send my deposit?

Bromo33333 · Oct 26, 2006

Karl K said:
I agree with Magpie. Make it simple and relatively affordable. I'd want a 6x12 or 6x9 format with either a 90mm or 65mm lens. Perhaps both formats and both lenses if it's cost effective. Zone focus or guesstimate focus is fine. A brightline finder would be nice. 120/220 film capability, without any kind of coupling to the shutter. No backs to change, just flip a counter switch and rotate the pressure plate. Where do I send my deposit?

Heck if it were 6x9 and 6x7 and 6x6 as the only formats - to keep is small, this would be a very good thing!

wy2l · Oct 26, 2006

Design for Our 6x9 camera

Please keep costs on the proposed new 6x9 as low as possible - and then cut some more. Are you going to build a VW or a Porsche?

Kris

herb · Oct 26, 2006

And also 6x9

I think the only thing I would really insist on is a real film counter. Some films have a color printing scheme that renders them invisible thru a red window.

Paul, you guys could come out with the simplest lightest version right away and add on a "pro model" at some future date.

Light weight, interchangeable lenses/cones and no red window.

go for it.

Help Us Design Our 6x9 Camera

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