Help Us Design Our 6x9 Camera

Dear Medium Format Fans,

having received enough requests to prompt us to explore buiding a dedicated 6x9 camera, we figured we would solicite your valuable input before embarking on this project. We did this once before on the LF Forum, prior to designing our 45PS camera, and owe much to those who contributed to it's success.

In a nutshell, while we have decided to build a 6x9 camera, we are in a quandry regarding which design approach to take... should it fall into our "Panoramic" or "Technical" series as far as design philosophy is concerned. For those not familiar with the difference, take a quick look at our website http:// www.fotomancamera.com before communicating your opinions and advise.

If we utilize a "Panoramic" design, the camera will NOT have integral movements OR interchangeable backs, and will therefore be smaller and more simple, resulting in a more affordable camera.

If we utilize a "Technical" design the reverse will be true... adding considerably to versatility, including integral movements and removeable backs results in a larger, more complex and higher cost camera.

Building both is an obvious solution... for Daddy Warbucks. Sadly, not a viable solution for us.

Sincerest thanks in advance... Fotoman Camera.

My vote would be for a simple "Panoramic" design with a fixed back and no movements. Lightweight and easy to use for hand-held shots. Those wanting movements etc. already have a number of options available, including excellent light-weight view cameras.

I too am for the pano camera. Make it light and easy to hold. Just like your other cameras.

I agree with the others - a simple panoramic would fill a niche that not many other cameras (or any) occupy at present.

Joe

I'd have to go against the grain and ask for a technical type camera with a full range of movements - a 6x9 with these features woudl definitely be something I'd like to own. I'd also like to see the option of different formats if possible ... say masks ranging between 645 and 6x9 would make this a mich more versatile and usable camera which could cover all needs.

Leon said:

I'd have to go against the grain and ask for a technical type camera with a full range of movements - a 6x9 with these features woudl definitely be something I'd like to own. I'd also like to see the option of different formats if possible ... say masks ranging between 645 and 6x9 would make this a mich more versatile and usable camera which could cover all needs.

Click to expand...

Sorry - Just looked at your sight after typing the above - whoops. Looks like you've got all that covered with the dmax. ok - pano it is then!

Hi,

My suggestion about 6x9: go rollfilm, pano like thus.

but.....
Why not just alter the filmback of the 6x12 pano?
- allow insertion of (6x4,5) 6x6, 6x9 masks in the body and over the viewfinder
- the neccesary extra framecounter windows (capped to avoid lightleaks)

From a business point of view a financially less demanding undertaking than designing a new body, IMHO.

Huib
www.huibsmeets.com

I've had a look, and a think.

And what I would consider buying is a small, hand-held camera for 6x9 rollfilm (120), designed for compactness and portability and able to use very short lenses.

So my vote is also for Panoramic.

I can add a poll to this thread, if you would like?

Well, if you go "technical" your main competitor is Alpa. If you go "panoramic," same story. Alpa does and you would compete with the uncountably many used press cameras that still exist and are much less expensive. If you go "technical" you have a good chance of eating Alpa's lunch, since I expect that your "technical" will be less expensive than their bodies with no movements.

Let's look at it from another angle. I already have a Century Graphic, 38 Biogon, 47 SA, 58 Grandagon, 65 Ilex, 80 WF Ektar, ... , 10.16" Taylor Hobson Copying Lens. Replacing my Century with a beautiful new camera from you or Alpa would lighten my wallet considerably. How would buying your proposed new camera or, for that matter, an Alpa improve my life or my photography?

My shooting would be made easier by a modern Mamiya Press, i.e., a 6x9 camera with interchangeable lenses, integral rangefinder that couples to all of them, reasonably accurate viewfinder, and no movements. Roger Hicks and I don't quite agree on this, but I don't yet see how an Alpa would let me do more, better, or easier than the gear I have now.

In other words, who's your market? Ignorant barbarians like me or richer people who don't have to improvise?

Cheers,

Dan

There are several good and inexpensive options for this, readily available are the singer and graflox backs, also the Shen Hoa and Focus series has camera panel set ups that utilize all their backs from 6 x 6 to a true 6 x 18...there seems to be a resurgence in China producing products for the traditional and fine art markets....also as stated above, adaptation of some really high quality products on the market for many years and available at historically low prices is a viable suggestion.....an inexpensive roll film back, singer etc. on a monorail gives all the movements, a new version of Jim Galvins camera would be nice, lots of possiblilites out there.

I'd ask for something halfway between the two- a fixed back, but with limited rise, shift (to accomodate rise on a vertically oriented frame) and if possible, a few degrees of tilt for perspective control, especially when in vertical mode. I'd give up the tilt for a coupled rangefinder.

My wish list is for a updated 6X9 Graphic, modern polycarbon body, coupled rangefinder, interchangable rotating backs, some lift and tilt, cams for a 55mm, 100mm, and 200mm lens, simple strap for hand held shots, folds up into small box for travel. Lighter than any of the old Mamyia presses or universals, more flexable than a current Mamyia 6X7.

Anything that a technical camera would do I can accomplish with my Horseman, or with any of a number of other commonly available older cameras. What is not commonly available is a light, portable, 6x9 wide angle folder. In the heyday of the folders, wide angle lenses were not as widely used, so the 35mm cameras had 50mm lenses where a modern one would have 35mm (e.g. Olympus Stylus Epic) and the 6x9s typically had a 105mm. A similar approach to 6x9 would give one a lightweight folder with a lens in the 75mm range, preferably with a coupled rangefinder.

DBP said:

Anything that a technical camera would do I can accomplish with my Horseman, or with any of a number of other commonly available older cameras. What is not commonly available is a light, portable, 6x9 wide angle folder. In the heyday of the folders, wide angle lenses were not as widely used, so the 35mm cameras had 50mm lenses where a modern one would have 35mm (e.g. Olympus Stylus Epic) and the 6x9s typically had a 105mm. A similar approach to 6x9 would give one a lightweight folder with a lens in the 75mm range, preferably with a coupled rangefinder.

Click to expand...

Although not a folder, what you're describing is a Fuji GW or GSW 690. That would be a nice idea in a folder, and if you went the folding route, you could at least have some front tilt/swing at the lens, if you built the bellows right.

TheFlyingCamera said:

Although not a folder, what you're describing is a Fuji GW or GSW 690. That would be a nice idea in a folder, and if you went the folding route, you could at least have some front tilt/swing at the lens, if you built the bellows right.

Click to expand...

I haven't handled the Fuji, but have the impression it is a bit bulky compared to a folder. Is it?

DBP said:

I haven't handled the Fuji, but have the impression it is a bit bulky compared to a folder. Is it?

Click to expand...

Yeah- the Fuji is a bit of a big pig, in part to handle the lens. It does have a coupled rangefinder and auto-exposure, and the lens is mounted in a helicoid, not a bellows. Fuji did make an earlier model of their 645 rangefinder with bellows focusing though, and that is quite pocketable. I wonder what about the lens made them decide they had to go for a rigid, helicoid focusing mechanism.

I think the camera this could compete with is the Cambo Wide DS, so I like the idea of a technical version. The Cambo body is $1500, but you're tied into super expensive helical mounted lenses and the finder is $750 with masks at $180 a piece. If you could come up with a similar camera with rise and shift that lets you use lenses you already have with affordable helical mounts, finder and masks, this could be attractive (but I already have a Linhof Tech V 23b and a Tech V 4x5", so I'm not in the market for such a camera).

Other than the Cambo or ALPA choices, there is also Silvestri. In fact, I think a Silvestri is what TheFlyingCamera is describing. It would be tough to get that range of movements and keep it at reasonable price levels.

A few comments about movements. The more tilt or shift available, the less likely you are going to be doing hand held photography with something like this. Sure, it is possible, but to really understand how the camera is working would require a ground glass, and not just guessing through a viewfinder. Anyone with a view camera and roll film back will probably have more choices in movements; in other words, I think competing with a technical 6x9 would not result in many sales. Besides, adding a roll film back to your existing 4x5 already accomplishes that.

So with that in mind, compact, lighter weight, and could be used hand held without much trouble would be a direction I think would work. This is more like the ALPA approach. There is also a lower end option in the Gaoersi 6x9. The ALPA has a couple nice concepts, like lever wind film backs, and dual hand grips. The Gaoersi is smaller and lighter, but only has knob wind with window film advance. The problem with window film advance is when you do night imaging, since it is tough to see the numbers without shining a light on the window, which risks fogging the film. A lever wind gets around that problems, plus it is simply easier to use in all situations. This might also be accomplished with a geared knob wind system with stops, but at much higher cost.

Anyone with a 4x5 might already have roll film backs, though I think a smaller lever wind back approach might be simpler. There are a ton of used and affordable Mamiya RB67 roll film backs on the market, including a motorized 6x8. Okay, so those are smaller than 6x9, though there are also Horseman 6x9 and some Linhof 6x9 backs on the market that fit smaller than 4x5 dimensions. The only thing that would be needed would be a body with holding locks to mount the back, then a similar set-up to other Fotoman cameras for the lens mounts.

So what I am suggesting is why just have a 6x9 when you can allow a choice of existing rollfilm lever wind backs. The camera cost could be kept low, since the construction would just be a body, lens mount, and a couple (or three) accessory shoes. The accessory shoe items could be a viewfinder, a rangefinder (like used Präzisa or Voigtländer), and maybe a two way bubble level as a third option. Sell it as a module system, maybe even having an option of a clip-on ground glass for fine focus. If it sells well, then maybe consider a second version with shift, perhaps along the lines of the Horseman or ALPA.

I would imagine the current Fotoman buyers have used lenses to mount on the cameras. Getting your own used (or new) lever wind rollfilm back doesn't seem like much more effort, and it would go some ways to keeping the system cost lower. If you decide to build such a camera, I would give up on my plans of having a machinist friend of mine help me with building my custom camera.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
Dead Link Removed

I have uploaded 2 photos in the tech gallery of the camera system I described earlier....we ordered several of these prototypes to test last year, have a couple left will put in classified in mid November...system handles formats 6 x 6 to 6 x 17 with the appropriate back, has front rise, can be focused on the ground glass or hand held. The Brooklyn bridge series (Blaze on , Matt Blaise) used one of these photos for the center photo of the Apug Ad flyer at the Silver Convention) was shot with this camera set up hand held with 6 x 17 back....for examples of photographs produced with this system...send e mail....I can t seem to get them loaded .. this back is an international back so offers lots of options..graflok...

HerrBremerhaven said:

there are also Horseman 6x9 and some Linhof 6x9 backs on the market that fit smaller than 4x5 dimensions.

Click to expand...

If you have in mind the Linhof backs for the baby Technikas, those only fit Linhof. They're not Graflok style.

HerrBremerhaven said:

Other than the Cambo or ALPA choices, there is also Silvestri. In fact, I think a Silvestri is what TheFlyingCamera is describing. It would be tough to get that range of movements and keep it at reasonable price levels.

A few comments about movements. The more tilt or shift available, the less likely you are going to be doing hand held photography with something like this. Sure, it is possible, but to really understand how the camera is working would require a ground glass, and not just guessing through a viewfinder.

<snip>

Gordon Moat
Dead Link Removed

Click to expand...

Gordon, until I bought a Folding Pocket Kodak (for the lens, not to use) that had the finder attached to the front standard, which had a fair amount of rise/fall I'd have agreed with you completely. Of course, to do that trick on a camera with interchangeable lenses one would need a finder for each focal length ...

Cheers,

Dan

Dan Fromm said:

Of course, to do that trick on a camera with interchangeable lenses one would need a finder for each focal length ...

Click to expand...

No you wouldn't. Just think about it for a moment, and you'll see that you won't. You could use wire frames like on old plate cameras - or Speed Graphic's.

6x9 is Fotoman

As I have been a serious photographer since WWII, I have owned a hell of a lot of cameras. Started with a speed graphic 2x3 etc. I have owned folders of Russian design, 6x9, have a 6x6 camera, numerous 4x5 and larger, tons of lenses, and the one thing missing is a really good quality 6x9 that will not reach the price level needed to add in a lot of features.

Hand holdable with interchangeable cones, why not? Rangefinder if you must, but not absolutely necessary.

Paul if you build a 6x9, I will buy one. I have a 6x17 on the way as we speak.

panoramic is my vote

Small, Mamiya 7 or Veriwide (the first one) sized
Light
good grip like a Mamiya 6/7
internal film winding like the fuji and Mamiya RF's -- no rfh backs
If it can't be range Finder coupled than build it with short lenses in mind
try and match lens lengths to existing view finders 15mm, 21mm, 24mm etc...
120 and 220 film would be nice but not a deal breaker
Movements aren't required but an offset v-shifted lens mount would be nice (removing some of the foreground).

Modular lens mounts would be killer, copal, rolie, mamiya, etc.. and an optional (optional to use or not) fp shutter for lenses that are not in shutter.

v and h tripod mounts.

thanks jdc

Ole said:

No you wouldn't. Just think about it for a moment, and you'll see that you won't. You could use wire frames like on old plate cameras - or Speed Graphic's.

Click to expand...

Admittedly it would be more than a little complex, but couldn't you do the same thing with the kind of projected brightline finder found in modern RFs by coupling the shift to the brightline frame?