Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania

[Xmas]

Question to Dave:

is there a calendar of sort, for Ferrania Chrome production?
Like: "June 2015: regular production OK, start of online sales; Oct 2015: production increased, start of channel sales; Feb 2016: introduction of 400 iso film" and so on.
Or is too early for such plans?

please see post #20

 

[ME Super]

While I'd love to see such a schedule, I think it may be a bit optimistic. The original plan was to introduce their first film in the first three months of 2014. Instead, we've seen it creep to April of 2015. But that's okay, because they've been planning to have a factory that can make film profitably for the forseeable future. I'd rather they take the time to make their factory right sized, than make film for 6 months and then go out of business again. Likewise, with the 400 and 800/3200 films they've talked about in this very thread, there may be some schedule slip but I'd rather see that than have it not available at all.

We've seen schedules slip with Adox, and I'd not be surprised to see some post-April 2014 schedule slip with the 400 and 800/3200 films. But that's okay, they will get there.

Go Ferrania!

 

[Nzoomed]

While I'd love to see such a schedule, I think it may be a bit optimistic. The original plan was to introduce their first film in the first three months of 2014. Instead, we've seen it creep to April of 2015. But that's okay, because they've been planning to have a factory that can make film profitably for the forseeable future. I'd rather they take the time to make their factory right sized, than make film for 6 months and then go out of business again. Likewise, with the 400 and 800/3200 films they've talked about in this very thread, there may be some schedule slip but I'd rather see that than have it not available at all.

We've seen schedules slip with Adox, and I'd not be surprised to see some post-April 2014 schedule slip with the 400 and 800/3200 films. But that's okay, they will get there.

Go Ferrania!

Thats right, its too hard for them to put a timeframe out there, but Dave has indicated that production should hopefully happen smoothly while they extend the plant and add the new machinery.
He has said that it will possibly be only a matter of a few weeks after the kickstarter batch is produced that we will see a new production run, so hopefully we will be able to buy the stuff well before mid-2015.

 

[StoneNYC]

Now back to Ferrania(with an A at the end and only one N...)

I would love if FILM Ferrania has a limited edition metal screw in case like this!!! So many times I'm out in the field and wish I had more than 2 to protect from the bright sun, I also shoot IR so this is more important for that film, but still I would love some of those!

Might FILMferrania come out with some of these as a promotional items?

No. This is a matter of physics being against you. It cannot be solved, but can be reduced by contrast masking and color masking.

As for reds in detail, here is a normally exposed slide, scanned (to get things into APUG we have to scan them in you know), and the original is EPP with the subjects being 3 racial types, 3 hair types, and 3 levels of detail in reds. You see, I have done this over and over and over so I have objective tests for comparison. Included with this are type R and type C. Some of them included Ektaflex prints and Cibachrome prints.

And yes, scanning introduces aliasing which is also present in this scan. It also works to make some very fine grained images look worse than they are. (think Ektar) The originals of this slide (+1, N, -1) and the Agfachrome, Fujichrome, Kodachrome and corresponding negative films were all shot with Nikon cameras with the standard lenses under rigid studio conditions.

The faces are blocked as I do not own the copyright nor do I have releases. These are 3 previously undocumented Kodak Girls BTW.

PE

Thanks for explaining, I agree the reds have a lot of loss of detail (even the navy blue looks like it might have lost detail) however I really like the colors in this image, they "pop" and I like it, EPP? Wow I don't remember it being so saturated.

Thanks for explaining.

 

[Jeff L]

I pity poor Dave Bias plowing through this concatenation of mostly irrelevant posts looking for questions directly related to Ferrania. If he gives up on this thread, it will be the fault of those who keep taking the thread off on tangents.

+1

 

[cmacd123]

+1

+2 This is a fun group but we really do tend to wander at times.

From Dave's timeline we can expect them to concentrate on an e-6 COlour slide film, starting with the "basic version' ASA 100. Then seeing about the faster versions in their play book. Once they start to get good sales on those items, then they can think about their next endeavour.

They did start out to create a replacement for 7285 Movie film, but that is an e-6 specality product which is used for Music Videos and film schools. There is not any cross market with the ECN and ECP stock used for feature films. 3M got out of Movies years ago so they probably did not leave any products in the pipeline that would fit the nagative/positive space. Unfortunately filmmakers that use the E-6 products are probably using the technology that we do not discuss to edit and distribute the finished product. using reversal movie products and then making reversal copies of them for distribution faded to black in the 1950s

OLD Ferrania did make a good C-41 series of films. Thye were mostly sold as private label film (if you have shot any private label film look at th enegatives and if you see green or red crosses in the area between the perforations you have used Ferrania colour. I suspect that as long as AgfaPhoto is selling private label fujicolour as AgfaPhoto colour negative there is not too much incentive for Ferrania to rush their c-41 to market. That market constraint could of course change at any time.

CibaCOlour was designed by CIBA and they set up the Swiss division of Illford to make it. WHO knows who has the rights for it. The process was already phased out as uneconomic to produce before illford of Switzerland filed for reorganization, so even thinking about ciba chrome is a can of worms that Ferrania probably would avoid like the plague.

 

[Nzoomed]

I would love if FILM Ferrania has a limited edition metal screw in case like this!!! So many times I'm out in the field and wish I had more than 2 to protect from the bright sun, I also shoot IR so this is more important for that film, but still I would love some of those!

Might FILMferrania come out with some of these as a promotional items?



Thanks for explaining, I agree the reds have a lot of loss of detail (even the navy blue looks like it might have lost detail) however I really like the colors in this image, they "pop" and I like it, EPP? Wow I don't remember it being so saturated.

Thanks for explaining.

Would be cool if they did, but i doubt they have the machinery to make those metal canisters, no doubt they got someone else to make them.
I really like the retro packaging on that box though, i hope they use a similar design and logo on the new films, keep it retro i say!
Should the new films be called Ferraniacolour or ferraniachrome?
the word "chrome" usually suggests that its a slide film, interesting that their early reversal films used "color" since that would normally suggest a negative film to me.

 

[pentaxpete]

I DUMPED all my 'girlie' photos on Ferraniacolor but I think I still have few photomicrogaphs by polarised light taken on a Zeiss Photomicroscope in a box in our shed in the garden but not easily accessible ! The 'Tungsten Balance' film seemed not to fade as did the 'Daylight Balance' film -- it was a pain washing for 15 minutes after the Colour Developer -- if it was cut short you got Magenta staining !I also used 'Gevaert Scientia Color' negative ( Un-Masked) film for Photomicrographs and it was very high contrast.

 

[StoneNYC]

Would be cool if they did, but i doubt they have the machinery to make those metal canisters, no doubt they got someone else to make them.
I really like the retro packaging on that box though, i hope they use a similar design and logo on the new films, keep it retro i say!
Should the new films be called Ferraniacolour or ferraniachrome?
the word "chrome" usually suggests that its a slide film, interesting that their early reversal films used "color" since that would normally suggest a negative film to me.

Usually, unless you're an idiot company like Lomorgraphy with their Lomochrome Purple..

Then again, there's Kodak Vericrhome, but that wasn't really Kodak's formula and they bought it and I think just never changed the name? When they went to update it they weren't about to change it so Verichromd Pan was born, however I have been thinking that it's possible that the reason that these films were originally called "chrome" had nothing to do with being a transparency and had to do with being a black-and-white film and a chrome look, after all if you remember, Kodachrome is a black-and-white film with dies added afterward, so really all the other chrome transparencies are incorrectly named in a way.

But yes today when we hear chrome we think of E-6/transparency and "color" we think C-41.

I agree they probably don't have the machinery, but then again I don't know, these days with new machinery anything is possible it could be a stamp on demand product from some metal worker?

Again I was talking as a promotional item not something that would be cheap to buy anyway. Just nifty, and another object to get people talking about the film.

 

[DaveTheWalker]

I have been thinking that it's possible that the reason that these films were originally called "chrome" had nothing to do with being a transparency and had to do with being a black-and-white film and a chrome look, after all if you remember, Kodachrome is a black-and-white film with dies added afterward, so really all the other chrome transparencies are incorrectly named in a way.

But yes today when we hear chrome we think of E-6/transparency and "color" we think C-41.

I always assumed it came from the Greek "Khroma", meaning colour... as in "chromatic aberration"

Dave

 

[Xmas]

Usually, unless you're an idiot company like Lomorgraphy with their Lomochrome Purple..

Then again, there's Kodak Vericrhome, but that wasn't really Kodak's formula and they bought it and I think just never changed the name? When they went to update it they weren't about to change it so Verichromd Pan was born, however I have been thinking that it's possible that the reason that these films were originally called "chrome" had nothing to do with being a transparency and had to do with being a black-and-white film and a chrome look, after all if you remember, Kodachrome is a black-and-white film with dies added afterward, so really all the other chrome transparencies are incorrectly named in a way.

But yes today when we hear chrome we think of E-6/transparency and "color" we think C-41.

I agree they probably don't have the machinery, but then again I don't know, these days with new machinery anything is possible it could be a stamp on demand product from some metal worker?

Again I was talking as a promotional item not something that would be cheap to buy anyway. Just nifty, and another object to get people talking about the film.

Hi Stone

Kodak 'bought in' verichrome film before they went to 'tripac' film like kodachrome as you allude to. A view is maybe that it's name ment true colour rather than overly blue sensitive. Similar to 'ortho'.

http://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/veritas
https://www.msu.edu/~defores1/gre/roots/gre_rts_afx2.htm

But chrome has been used in trade names, as well as color for transparency film eg

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autochrome
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dufaycolor

So 'chrome' did and still does not mean anything on a film box & neither does 'color'. Fuji adapted the Kodak convention cause they wanted market share by fair or foul.

Trade names are just trade names, they are like patents you can be sued, if there is commercial loss, but Id not recommend you tried it on Lomo.

Kodak and Fuji won't be on film boxes for ever - soon they will be like Auto and Dufay, and any possible confusion will be history.

Noel

 

[flavio81]

Should the new films be called Ferraniacolour or ferraniachrome?

How about Ferraniacolori?

("Colori" = "colors" in italian)

 

[Nzoomed]

Usually, unless you're an idiot company like Lomorgraphy with their Lomochrome Purple..

Then again, there's Kodak Vericrhome, but that wasn't really Kodak's formula and they bought it and I think just never changed the name? When they went to update it they weren't about to change it so Verichromd Pan was born, however I have been thinking that it's possible that the reason that these films were originally called "chrome" had nothing to do with being a transparency and had to do with being a black-and-white film and a chrome look, after all if you remember, Kodachrome is a black-and-white film with dies added afterward, so really all the other chrome transparencies are incorrectly named in a way.

But yes today when we hear chrome we think of E-6/transparency and "color" we think C-41.

I agree they probably don't have the machinery, but then again I don't know, these days with new machinery anything is possible it could be a stamp on demand product from some metal worker?

Again I was talking as a promotional item not something that would be cheap to buy anyway. Just nifty, and another object to get people talking about the film.

True about Verichrome, i thought it was called that because it was a panchromatic film?
Im sure they could get the cannisters punched out in China really cheap.
Is that container made from steel of Aluminium?
Im guessing we will see plastic containers for 35mm anyway, and no doubt the 120 will be sealed in a plastic foil wrapper?
Keeping the films airtight is supposed to help its shelf life doesnt it? If so, Ferrania may be reluctant to use packaging that does not keep out the air.

But yeah, i hope they package the film with the old retro ferraniacolour logo that they have made for the stickers they are giving us with the kickstarter.
Anyway, it may be better for them to rebrand it as ferraniachrome so as to avoid confusion with any of their older products from the 60's/70's.

And when C41 is reintroduced, im happy with them keeping the Solaris name. Or perhaps "ferraniacolor" Solaris or something along those lines anyway.

 

[FILM Ferrania]

Yes, good idea!
On the topic of Ilfochrome/Cibachrome, there is a big hole in the market for printing on such paper.
Since this was made in Switzerland, its only across the border if it was possible to acquire the machinery made.
But i have no idea on the scale of their operations, nor if Ilfords machinery is still there.
But if the equipment did still exist and was not too much to move out, could this be something possibly that ferrania could acquire and start a paper business?
AFAIK, there is not any other printing process out there that has the same dye stability, if there is, i want to know!

I would be more than happy to fund a separate kickstarter for such a project if ferrania were up to the challenge.

So if your reading this Dave, is this something you are up to?
Or is it possible with your coater to produce such papers without requiring their machinery?
I know someone has asked you about papers earlier, so maybe this may be along those lines too.

I am still reading, but as this thread goes fractal, I'm not seeing many questions...

Photographic paper is not on our radar at the moment and will not be for a very long time... We are, however, keeping our eyes peeled for just about any kind of equipment that can be purchased and relocated to Italy for bargain prices. If you know about something in particular, we would love to know about it.

 

[Photo Engineer]

I am still reading, but as this thread goes fractal, I'm not seeing many questions...

Photographic paper is not on our radar at the moment and will not be for a very long time... We are, however, keeping our eyes peeled for just about any kind of equipment that can be purchased and relocated to Italy for bargain prices. If you know about something in particular, we would love to know about it.

Kodak is junking coating equipment and lab equipment as the need arises. I have seen almost a full coating machine worth of tubing and kettles and lots of UF equipment.

PE

 

[FILM Ferrania]

Go Ferrania...

I look forward to following your critical path efforts to bring to market a first run batch of a new 100-speed E-6 film in four formats, two of them cine. I also look forward to hearing about any progress on the tooling and machinery tasks as well, given that demolition deadlines may be looming.

Ken

We in the US office are desperately begging our cohorts in Italy to take a photo or two and share with us. But this is honestly the last thing on their minds and we'd rather let them keep doing what they're doing and not bug them so much about showing us what they're doing.

Soon, we have an Italian enthusiast visiting the team whose job it is to extract some good content we can share with the world. Soon...

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

We in the US office are desperately begging our cohorts in Italy to take a photo or two and share with us. But this is honestly the last thing on their minds and we'd rather let them keep doing what they're doing and not bug them so much about showing us what they're doing.

Soon, we have an Italian enthusiast visiting the team whose job it is to extract some good content we can share with the world. Soon...

I think if you can somehow manage to sneak some pictures out it might help give everyone a little bit more incentive to speculate more realistically on what is, or might be, happening.

Without any (passive) guidance and left to their own devices, the norm around here is to just go bonkers off the deep end.



Ken

 

[Nzoomed]

I am still reading, but as this thread goes fractal, I'm not seeing many questions...

Photographic paper is not on our radar at the moment and will not be for a very long time... We are, however, keeping our eyes peeled for just about any kind of equipment that can be purchased and relocated to Italy for bargain prices. If you know about something in particular, we would love to know about it.

Hi Dave,
Yes I certainly wouldn't expect you to produce paper any time soon, but its always good to save and shelve any equipment that may be of use to you in the future should the need arise, since once these things are gone, they are gone. Another thread here on APUG suggests that A japanese group have acquired the remains of Ilford in Switzerland, but i dont know what the fate is of the equipment, if they still have it and want to sell it at a cheap price that would be great, but i dont know who the contacts would be, i dont think they have any interest in producing Ilfochrome or photographic papers anyway.

I was also going to ask you if Ferrania had a seperate facility for producing photographic paper, or was this being done with big boy and the LRF?

Paper is obviously not the top priority right now, and i can live with out it, but as others have pointed out to me, its not the most ideal thing to print Reversal films digitally.

And yes, im keen to see some photos of big boy and of the work being done etc, like most of us here are, but of course no rush, im sure they are very busy working in the LRF!

 

[ME Super]

It may not be ideal to print reversal film with a hybrid process, but if the last step of that hybrid process doesn't involve ink jet on paper, but instead is printed on real photo paper using silver halides (and dyes if color), it's good enough for what I use it for. My target audience (family members) doesn't care if it's printed in an analog-only process - they just want it to be pleasing to the eye. Yes, I know that's near heresy here, but that's life. Go Ferrania! (That's equivalent to a Hail Ansel, right? )

 

[Prof_Pixel]

I think if you can somehow manage to sneak some pictures out it might help give everyone a little bit more incentive to speculate more realistically on what is, or might be, happening.

Realistic speculation here on APUG? LOL

 

[StoneNYC]

Question, besides what you are going to produce at first, what is the second most popular film format that you plan to produce/introduce once you get off the ground with the initial formats?

 

[Sal Santamaura]

...Without any (passive) guidance and left to their own devices, the norm around here is to just go bonkers off the deep end...

Observation too narrow. Applies to homo sapiens in general. Many times even guidance doesn't keep things on track.

 

[ME Super]

What you talkin' bout, Ken? We go bonkers off the deep end even with guidance!

 

[AgX]

I would love if FILM Ferrania has a limited edition metal screw in case like this!!! So many times I'm out in the field and wish I had more than 2 to protect from the bright sun, I also shoot IR so this is more important for that film, but still I would love some of those!

What about a light-tight (not checked for IR yet) plastic cannister as this?

http://www.macodirect.de/images/Rollei_Superpan_RSP2001-325.jpg

Maco did sell them empty. But buying a few film for the cannisters wouldn't be that bad either.

 

[Dr Croubie]

What about a light-tight (not checked for IR yet) plastic cannister as this?

I bought some Rollei IR400 from maco the other week, and it came in a plastic tube like that. So unless they have two types and only one is IR tight (which would be silly really, making them all the same would be cheaper), I'd guess that they're all fine for IR.