Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania

[StoneNYC]

It sounds to me from what ive been reading that in alot of cases that there is a payoff between resolving power and grain, e.g you can have a film with a high resolving power and the tradeoff is more grain, and the reverse can be said also.

However i dont agree with this 100% because films such as Velvia are extremley fine grained, and this film has the highest resolving power of any film today.

Agreed, too bad it's not available anywhere but Japan in sheet film anymore... Breaks my heart...

 

[Dr Croubie]

Agreed, too bad it's not available anywhere but Japan in sheet film anymore... Breaks my heart...

Breaks my wallet...

Actually, there's a weird thing about Velvia, RVP50 has an RMS of 9, RVP100 has an RMS of 8, both resolve 80/160 lines at 1.6/1000 :1 (according to their datasheets)
Provia 100F has an RMS of 8 and only resolves 60/140 lines.
Astia 100F had granularity of 7 and still resolved 60/140 lines.
Sensia was RMS 10 and did 55/135.
Provia 400X had RMS 11 and resolved 55/135.
These numbers are a bit counterintuitive and all over the shop actually, but that's fuji for you...

 

[pbromaghin]

This is an extremely important observation. One who ultimate consequences I fear are often lost on many.

From an (there was a url link here which no longer exists) of mine addressing the constant drumbeat of demand for ever cheaper film...

"I think we need to manage our expectations a little at the beginning. There is a tendency to think that the customer is still king and is always still right no matter what. But expecting Ferrania to initially give us better E-6 than Fuji, and/or at a lower price point, and possibly in a gazillion formats, and a new color negative film right away as well, might be asking for the impossible.

"If we hold them to such a standard right out of the gate, they may never reach critical mass and just be forced to throw in the towel. Then what do we do a year later when Fuji shuts down all color film manufacturing?

"Better I think to be a little more patient. And be willing to initially pay what is required to keep them moving forward as a viable long-term option to Fuji. Part of the definition of extinct includes the principle of a very long time.

"I also worry about Adox in this same respect. Everyone wants cheap, cheap, cheap. Mirko has written here on several occasions bemoaning the fact that some of his plans for future films are on hold because no one wants to pay what is required to bring them to market. Sometimes I wonder how long he can keep going as well.

"Be careful what you ask for..."​

There is a tipping point in the world of manufacturing where a product simply cannot be made for less, and the customer absolutely refuses to pay that amount and demands cheaper prices.

What we all need to ponder now and then is how close color photographic film may be to that tipping point in today's painfully contracted market. And what ultimately happens when those lines on the graph cross and the tip over finally occurs.

Ken

I may be a couple days late in responding to this, but it may be the most important post in the thread. Ken is right. We need to keep our own self-importance in check and accept what they are able to give us. These guys are risking an awful lot on this one throw of the dice, more than 10,000 people in Las Vegas ever will. There are millions of dollars at stake here.

 

[TheToadMen]

Oh that must be my problem, I was trying Jnanian's feces processing developer

You mean a Caffenol developer made of Kopi Luwak beans?
:confused:

 

[Truzi]

I think this thread holds a record for how long it went before being derailed
I have a feeling it will even get back on track.

 

[ME Super]

Ferraniachrome! Because, well, projected slides are AWESOME!

How's that for back on track?

 

[Regular Rod]

Ferraniachrome! Because, well, projected slides are AWESOME!

How's that for back on track?

Splendid! When do we backers get our film BTW?

RR

 

[Xmas]

Splendid! When do we backers get our film BTW?

RR

see post #20

ok April'15

 

[Xmas]

I think this thread holds a record for how long it went before being derailed
I have a feeling it will even get back on track.

Hi Truzi

see post #8 for first attempt...

 

[flavio81]

Did you miss typed something? You said that the Kodak gold 100 has the same lp/mm as Portra160, that can't be true, grain in Gold100 is way worse in any images I've shit in that film. could you explain this?

Gold 100 generation 6 (Gold 100-6) was one of the sharpest films ever, if Kodak's datasheet MTF curves are to be believed.

There is a relationship between sharpness and grain, you want better sharpness, the grain suffers and viceversa. I would guess that Kodak Gold 100-6 traded grain for sharpness.

Now back to topic...

 

[Nzoomed]

Now back to topic...

Yes, good idea!
On the topic of Ilfochrome/Cibachrome, there is a big hole in the market for printing on such paper.
Since this was made in Switzerland, its only across the border if it was possible to acquire the machinery made.
But i have no idea on the scale of their operations, nor if Ilfords machinery is still there.
But if the equipment did still exist and was not too much to move out, could this be something possibly that ferrania could acquire and start a paper business?
AFAIK, there is not any other printing process out there that has the same dye stability, if there is, i want to know!

I would be more than happy to fund a separate kickstarter for such a project if ferrania were up to the challenge.

So if your reading this Dave, is this something you are up to?
Or is it possible with your coater to produce such papers without requiring their machinery?
I know someone has asked you about papers earlier, so maybe this may be along those lines too.

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

Go Ferrania...

I look forward to following your critical path efforts to bring to market a first run batch of a new 100-speed E-6 film in four formats, two of them cine. I also look forward to hearing about any progress on the tooling and machinery tasks as well, given that demolition deadlines may be looming.

Ken

 

[Xmas]

Yes, good idea!
On the topic of Ilfochrome/Cibachrome, there is a big hole in the market for printing on such paper.
Since this was made in Switzerland, its only across the border if it was possible to acquire the machinery made.
But i have no idea on the scale of their operations, nor if Ilfords machinery is still there.
But if the equipment did still exist and was not too much to move out, could this be something possibly that ferrania could acquire and start a paper business?
AFAIK, there is not any other printing process out there that has the same dye stability, if there is, i want to know!

I would be more than happy to fund a separate kickstarter for such a project if ferrania were up to the challenge.

So if your reading this Dave, is this something you are up to?
Or is it possible with your coater to produce such papers without requiring their machinery?
I know someone has asked you about papers earlier, so maybe this may be along those lines too.

You would need to buy the IPR for the chemistry and paper. Ferranni are '''''merely''''' reengineering their own product and have all the IPR and know how.

Your request is more like the impossible film.

 

[pdeeh]

Also, Dave, if you could start producing glass plates in ¼, ½ and full plate sizes in ortho and pan, Azo paper, Portriga, Velox, Bromesko, double weight stipple finish, Plus-X in all sizes from 8mm upwards, HIE ditto, Aura 820 ditto ...

... and while you're at it I'd prefer it if you would simply end war, famine and illness and bring about a second Age of Enlightenment

 

[Nzoomed]

You would need to buy the IPR for the chemistry and paper. Ferranni are '''''merely''''' reengineering their own product and have all the IPR and know how.

Your request is more like the impossible film.

Who even owns the IPR though? The company has gone under. Being such an old process i would expect that the patents have long expired anyway. It basically is a dye imbition process similar to technicolor, so dont know what patents would be even relevant today.
Even if someone does own the IPR to the stuff, its worthless to them if no one wants to use them.
The whole company has fallen over. Could Harman/Ilford in the UK produce it instead?

 

[Nzoomed]

Go Ferrania...

I look forward to following your critical path efforts to bring to market a first run batch of a new 100-speed E-6 film in four formats, two of them cine. I also look forward to hearing about any progress on the tooling and machinery tasks as well, given that demolition deadlines may be looming.

Ken

Same here, im interested to see what this "big boy" coater consists of etc
I think they said they will keep up posted with updates on progress, so hopefully they will upload some videos of them dismantling the plant.

 

[Ricardo Miranda]

Who even owns the IPR though? The company has gone under. Being such an old process i would expect that the patents have long expired anyway. It basically is a dye imbition process similar to technicolor, so dont know what patents would be even relevant today.
Even if someone does own the IPR to the stuff, its worthless to them if no one wants to use them.
The whole company has fallen over. Could Harman/Ilford in the UK produce it instead?

"Dreaming the Impossible dream"
Read: (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

 

[TheToadMen]

Originally Posted by flavio81 (there was a url link here which no longer exists)
Now back to topic...

Yes, good idea!
On the topic of Ilfochrome/Cibachrome, there is (...)

 

[Prof_Pixel]

It basically is a dye imbition process similar to technicolor, so dont know what patents would be even relevant today./QUOTE]


Nope - it's no way like the Technicolor process. Ilfochrome (also commonly known as Cibachrome) is a dye destruction positive-to-positive photographic process used for the reproduction of film transparencies on photographic paper. (from the Ilfochrome Wiki).

 

[Nzoomed]

It basically is a dye imbition process similar to technicolor, so dont know what patents would be even relevant today./QUOTE]


Nope - it's no way like the Technicolor process. Ilfochrome (also commonly known as Cibachrome) is a dye destruction positive-to-positive photographic process used for the reproduction of film transparencies on photographic paper. (from the Ilfochrome Wiki).

I thought technicolor was dye destruction too, just done in 3 stages?
Anyway, it would be good if some group can save Ilfochrome, because there is no decent optical printing available today.

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

..

 

[Prof_Pixel]

I thought technicolor was dye destruction too, just done in 3 stages?

Technicolor iwas a dye-transfer process.

 

[Nzoomed]

Technicolor iwas a dye-transfer process.

Yes it was, but i always thought that each layer of dye was transferred to the film and then parts removed with a dye destruction process to make the image for each colour channel?

 

[MonkeyBrain]

Incredible!

I live in italy and must be among the last great color film consumers left in Europe (I shoot around 800 sheets of 4x5 and hundreds of rolls of 120 neg each year) and consequently sourcing affordable film has become almost a full-time occupation. A direct-from-the-manufacturer source of film is like a dream come true.

And given that Fuji have apparently stopped producing Pro 160 NS in 4x5 the timing couldn't be better (though I realize that to date no one at ferrania has mentioned anything about doing runs of color neg sheet film, but I can dream...).

How is it possible that I'd not heard about this before today?

OK, I never shoot transparencies, but this is still absolutely amazing news! Will definitely be keeping a close eye on progress.

E daje! in boca al lupo Ferrania!

 

[Photo Engineer]

Yes it was, but i always thought that each layer of dye was transferred to the film and then parts removed with a dye destruction process to make the image for each colour channel?

No, dyes were not removed imagewise. The dye transferred was already the image, and 3 colors were transferred in the best Technicolor process. They also had a 2 color process.

I have mentioned this before. I suggest you read a good history of color photography.

PE