Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

[jonasfj]

The right thing to do at this point would be to refund all the people who contributed to the Kickstarter project!

 

[Agulliver]

The right thing to do at this point would be to refund all the people who contributed to the Kickstarter project!

Why?

The kickstarter was to fund purchase and storage of the machinery Film Ferrania need to manufacture film. That is what the funds were used for.

 

[jonasfj]

Why?

The kickstarter was to fund purchase and storage of the machinery Film Ferrania need to manufacture film. That is what the funds were used for.

And to provide the rewards...

 

[cmacd123]

And to provide the rewards...

the rewards were always a promised BONUS. and all of the folks including me who paid into the project are probably lucky that the FF folks have not just quietly walked away. the kickstarter money was paid to save the machines from the scrap pile. They did not know at the time just what a struggle it would be.

so far the backers DID get a chance to buy 5 rolls of Alpha at a discount. WE can still cross our fingers that more opportunity will be forthcoming.

I do wish that Mr. Bias would "drop by" with a staus update.

 

[Truzi]

I do wish that Mr. Bias would "drop by" with a staus update.

I think we have to say his name 3 times for that

 

[wlodekmj]

I think we have to say his name 3 times for that

Or maybe "Dave, I really think I'm entitled to an answer to that question."

 

[Harry Callahan]

These guys are unbelievably consistent in missing deadlines... Let´s just face it, Film Ferrania will never ever deliver color reversal film!

Just like some are unbelivable consistent in always having something to gripe about and maintain that Ferrania is dead. Let´s face it, it will never end... probably even go on when Ferrania really should have failed...

The right thing to do at this point would be to refund all the people who contributed to the Kickstarter project!

Aside they probably no longer have the kickstarter-funds, refunding the backers would kill the complete enterprise. Then there was one producer less of analog film. Would that be the "right thing"?

 

[iandvaag]

The idea of crowdfunding is for people to *give away their money* to some group or firm which pledges to accomplish some task. There may be some reward offered, but the reward is in no way supposed to be equitable remuneration for the funds given. Crowdfunding is *not* to be regarded as a pre-order.

However, Kickstarter is commonly used nowadays as a pre-order platform for already established firms. In these cases, the product is already nearly fully developed. Late-generation prototypes have been built, rigorous testing has been done, and the firm may already even have the means of production (or drafted a contract to have a 3rd party do a production run). The "crowdfunding" campaign is immaterial to the success of the firm, and possibly even the product. Rather than a funding source. the campaign is simply used as a means to get a bunch of publicity and to build hype around the product launch. It also provides a bit of insurance that the product will be successful, since you can get a lot of people to commit to purchase the product and you can scale production accordingly. This can be quite an advantage: for example, people are unlikely to have second thoughts by reading bad reviews, since there are no bad reviews for a product that doesn't yet exist!

I regard the "pre-order model" to be a misuse of a crowdfunding platform. These projects go against what crowdfunding is intended to be and confuse potential "backers" into thinking that they are owed something in return for funding a project. In fact, Kickstarter seems to recognize that this type of use is problematic (here's an article they authored called "Kickstarter is not a store".)

If a company makes no attempt to deliver the task that they proposed and runs away to the Bahamas, that would be cause to demand a refund. Conversely, Film Ferrania has nothing to apologize for, and owes no one a refund. They used the platform as intended: to secure funds from a community to accomplish a task -- to save old film production machinery from being recycled. That's what the pledge was, and they did it.They are working hard to build a film factory on a "small" scale using the equipment they salvaged. These folks are the real deal. If Film Ferrania was a con to get money, then why did P30 alpha get made? Why did they invest so much into the LRF? And if they're in it for the long-con, what kind of scammers stop accepting money after 30 days?

Rewards are exactly that: rewards. Not entitlements, because no-one pre-ordered a product. Here it is straight from the horse's mouth:
"We want to be clear that backing this project is not simply pre-purchasing film before its release. We are offering rewards in the truest sense of the word."

Now, obviously FF made some claims that were too bold about the rewards in the Risks and challenges section their Kickstarter page:
-"Upon success, your risk practically vanishes."
-"we WILL produce one limited-size film batch on the schedule shown above."

I'm sure that in hindsight Ferrania wishes they hadn't stated these things so strongly. However, they encountered challenges far in excess of what is to be reasonably expected, and they made the best of a bad situation. This has all been explained in detail in their series of blog posts. Stuff happens sometimes. Most people would have given up. But no, Ferrania pressed forward, true to their original goal of creating a film factory for the next 100 years.

Furthermore, Ferrania has not reneged on delivering rewards. They were unable to meet their window of opportunity back in 2015, but they have not annulled the rewards. As cmacd123 mentions, there was an opportunity to exchange one's original reward for P30. If instead you chose not to redeem your reward for P30, Ferrania stated they would still honour the original reward when colour film becomes a reality, and offered an *additional* reward : a significant discount on up to 5 rolls of P30 alpha! This type of gesture definitively shows that this is not a con-job.

TL;DR - Crowdfunding is a voluntary gift of funds by individuals to a group who pledges to attempt to accomplish some task, to the best of their ability. Film Ferrania have amply demonstrated that they have honoured their pledge, and continue to do so.

 

[ITD]

TL;DR - Crowdfunding is a voluntary gift of funds by individuals to a group who pledges to attempt to accomplish some task, to the best of their ability. Film Ferrania have amply demonstrated that they have honoured their pledge, and continue to do so.

Well said.

 

[peter k.]

Yes very well stated, thank you.. +10 with Two Thumbs up..

 

[pbromaghin]

4 thumbs up.

 

[Agulliver]

I think some people have completely failed to understand how kickstarters work and what the money goes towards....and that a donation is a donation.


+5 on Iandvaarg's post. Said it much better than I could.

 

[BAC1967]

Had people simply read the description of what they were giving money for there would be no issue.

 

[Nzoomed]

The right thing to do at this point would be to refund all the people who contributed to the Kickstarter project!

Why? They are in the process of starting colour film production and making the necessary chemistry and have a private investor.

 

[jonasfj]

Why? They are in the process of starting colour film production and making the necessary chemistry and have a private investor.

Do you really think so?

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Read the updates.

 

[jonasfj]

Read the updates.

There´s nothing in the updates suggesting either that there is an investor nor that they are in a position to produce color negative film. The machines salvaged by funds of the kickstarter are not even installed.

 

[dutchsteammachine]

There´s nothing in the updates suggesting either that there is an investor nor that they are in a position to produce color negative film. The machines salvaged by funds of the kickstarter are not even installed.

This is one of the machines saved with the kickstarter:

Looks installed to me.

 

[Agulliver]

You're quite right that they are not currently in a position to manufacture colour reversal film.....but if you read the updates you would know why they were unable to do so three years ago due to circumstances beyond their control and which were wholly unpredictable.....and that they are working towards manufacture of colour reversal film. You'd also know they've not had access to their building for much of the last six months and that it's only now in the autumn of 2018 that it's actually fit for purpose - again due to circumstances not under Film Ferrania's control.

If you'd read the kickstarter description, you'd know that the funds were for saving the machinery necessary to manufacture film including colour reversal. You'd also probably be aware that those machines were bought, stored and are now being reinstalled - some already have been. They're going to have continuous in-house production and finishing of 135, 120 and 127 B&W film next year leading to colour reversal in time. They are a very small team of people quite possibly working without being paid salaries.

If you understood the whole ethos of crowdfunding you'd know that it's effectively a voluntary donation. This was also explained in the initial campaign.

And you demand a refund. When all this is pointed out, you still think you're entitled to a refund. And you wonder why we ask "why?"

 

[warden]

And to provide the rewards...

Are you truly that hard up for "rewards"? Does it matter so much that it's worth complaining about for years? Are you one of the 1,300 people that pledged $35 and are now moaning about not receiving two lousy rolls of film and some juvenile stickers? Some of you guys act like you're twelve.

 

[wyofilm]

Are you truly that hard up for "rewards"? Does it matter so much that it's worth complaining about for years? Are you one of the 1,300 people that pledged $35 and are now moaning about not receiving two lousy rolls of film and some juvenile stickers? Some of you guys act like you're twelve.

Bravo!

 

[railwayman3]

Maybe (almost certainly ? ) Ferrania were too optimistic with their original plans and timetable, and the "promises" of an E6 film within months failed for reasons beyond their control. And obviously there was misunderstanding as to the exact purposes of the Kickstarter funds.

OTOH, we are now over four years down the line, with no sign of even a reliable supply of B&W 35mm film (the shop now closed until the new year), and in the meantime Kodak has revived Ektachrome ? Can Ferrania now ever be expected to produce an equivalent quality E6 film at a competitive price ? And would users be prepared to experiment with an "Alpha" color film.....there has been some novelty in trying out "alpha" P30, which costs only a little time and a few pence worth of chemicals, but color is much more costly to process and there is little flexibility in the processing.

In my "business school" days, many years ago, we were taught that a new business would be unlikely to succeed if set up to compete with the established "big names" (don't try to make chocolate to compete with Hershays, or burgers to complete with Big Mac!).....keep to small, better, cheaper or more specialist products. Perhaps Ferrania has set its targets too high ?

On a slightly different, but not totally unrelated, tack, I was in the "Photographers Gallery" in London last week, and there was a great variety of film for sale, both B&W and color.....I'm guessing maybe the best part of 100 different types and sizes , from the "usual" fresh product from Ilford, Kodak, and Fuji, and the less well-known Adox and Foma, through to the querky stuff from Lomo, FPP, Svema, Tasma, etc. Maybe the latter approach is better ?

 

[erian]

And would users be prepared to experiment with an "Alpha" color film.....

I would given they can deliver it.

In my "business school" days, many years ago, we were taught that a new business would be unlikely to succeed if set up to compete with the established "big names" (don't try to make chocolate to compete with Hershays, or burgers to complete with Big Mac!).....keep to small, better, cheaper or more specialist products. Perhaps Ferrania has set its targets too high ?

I think that you have your answer encoded in your question. Ferrania has something that Kodak can't make - Ferrania film. There is plenty of business for craft burgers and Ferrania is more flexible for experimentation in theory.

 

[Harry Callahan]

There´s nothing in the updates suggesting either that there is an investor nor that they are in a position to produce color negative film. The machines salvaged by funds of the kickstarter are not even installed.

There is something with you and Ferrania, right?
Havn´t you heard that the new Ektachrome is delayend in shipment by several weeks, only available in small quantities and pretty expensive?
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/kodak-reintroduces-ektachrome.143089/page-77
Havn´t seen you once complain about that. Ain´t that worth one of your comments, too?

Oh, and Ferrania is trying to produce color reversal not negative. And the coater they used to produce P30 is one of the salvaged machines. And the drying tunnel. And the labs to mix the chemicals. And the slitter.
And a lot of the salvaged machines weren´t meant to be installed but to serve as spares, but whatever...

...
OTOH, we are now over four years down the line, with no sign of even a reliable supply of B&W 35mm film (the shop now closed until the new year), and in the meantime Kodak has revived Ektachrome ? Can Ferrania now ever be expected to produce an equivalent quality E6 film at a competitive price ? And would users be prepared to experiment with an "Alpha" color film.....there has been some novelty in trying out "alpha" P30, which costs only a little time and a few pence worth of chemicals, but color is much more costly to process and there is little flexibility in the processing.

In my "business school" days, many years ago, we were taught that a new business would be unlikely to succeed if set up to compete with the established "big names" (don't try to make chocolate to compete with Hershays, or burgers to complete with Big Mac!).....keep to small, better, cheaper or more specialist products. Perhaps Ferrania has set its targets too high ?
...

As i assumed Ektachrome is quite expensive in europe.
If we take the S8-cartridge for example the cheapest price in europe is 60€ (without shipping; and there are some asking 65€ per cartridge) for one S8-cartridge. With one Euro being about 1.15$ at the moment, this is 69$ for one cartridge without developement.
Ferrania had priced one S8-cartridge of "Ferraniachrome" at 50$ at their Kickstartercampaign, indicating that price even might drop a little once the coater is expanded and everything fully running. But if we assume that they will offer one S8-cartridge for 50$ this would be cheaper by about 30% than Kodak - and during the Kickstarter they teamed up with a lab which was meant to provide free processing for the films of the campaign.
This now probably is obsolete, but being 30% cheaper than Kodak in europe is competitive, taken into account that their film will be grainier. Ferrania then will be the "good`n cheap" alternative to Kodak and such producers always have been around, no matter what product you look at.

I don´t think that its wrong what they taught you in your buisness school days, but there maybe wasn´t the internet around back then. So back then one not only had to be able to produce a competitive product, but also needed to be able to provide the "infrastructure" to get the product to the customer, including advertising etc. . That´s what established companies were good at, respectively they had the money to pay for all this - but that hurdle is a lot smaller today because of the internet. Producers can basically do factory sales by having a website - and because of the internet they can reach a wide number of customers without actually having to pay for advertising at all, or not a lot.
So Ferrania surely won´t become as big as Kodak, but they should have their place at the market, i mean even Lomo has its place.

 

[faberryman]

Havn´t you heard that the new Ektachrome is delayend in shipment by several weeks, only available in small quantities and pretty expensive?

I don't think you can play the expensive card. P30 was the most expensive black and white film the last time it was available for purchase. Lots of people were disappointed, but paid the piper to be members of the trendy group.