Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

[warden]

GOOD, but I am glad that I did not start holding my breathe at the beginning of this thread.

I don't know what holding your breath has to do with the ups and downs of a start-up commercializing a complicated film product launch with a skeleton crew, a small budget and facilities tied to the Italian government, but sure, hold your breath, I guess. My neighbor does that sometimes, but then again she's 3.

Have you tried the film? do you have anything to add to the thread or are you here exclusively to piss on it?

 

[faberryman]

Have you tried the film? do you have anything to add to the thread or are you here exclusively to piss on it?

Piss on what? P30 is unavailable. I think the problem is they are currently without electricity until the Italian government gets around to wiring the building.

 

[warden]

Piss on what? P30 is unavailable. I think the problem is they are currently without electricity until the Italian government gets around to wiring the building.

Yes, Ferrania has kept us updated on their challenges. P30 is currently unavailable but there is product out there, and people are exposing, developing, printing, and sharing results and opinions. Perhaps not so much here at the moment, but elsewhere on the net.

 

[flavio81]

Guys,

You should remember that the Ferrania project wasn't just "making slide film". It's not as if Ferrania had a working factory and then they decided to make slide film. If, for example, Foma wanted to make slide film, it would be rather easy for them, provided with the necessary investment to unlock Photo Engineer and treat him with the necessary spoiling so APUG members don't travel en masse to Bohemia,CZ and start a riot on the Foma factory.

Ferrana had to basically create a new factory, and additionally it needs to plug this factory into the power grid, water supplies, etc; due to external circumstances. They also had to refurbish specialized machinery themselves. Machinery that probably isn't available to buy "brand new, ready to use" nowadays.

I think that most setbacks have had little to do with Ferrania itself and more to do with the Italian infrastructure projects.

The fact that they were able to make an emulsion (P30) that works is a great signal. It means that their machinery finally works. Even better if they ironed out the initial coating problems. Even better if now they are about to make their own 120 backing paper. This, in particular, is a BIG reason to be happy in 2018, for it will benefit the other manufacturers too, since this specialized supply was in danger to become monopolized.

P30 might not be a fantastic film, but consider that (a) this is original film, not rebranded film made by (foma/kodak/ilford/fuji/shanghai/orwo), nor rebranded old stock film from Agfa/Svema/et, and (b) it is a distinct film, with distinct spectral response and characteristics, so it gives us a new alternative. I think it's always great to be able to have many films with very different looks, for example FP4 vs Foma 100 vs Adox 100 vs Tmax 100.

They are almost done in the "having a working film factory" task, so they are almost ready to get into the "make slide film" task.

 

[peter k.]

yep... +10

 

[fdonadio]

Machinery that probably isn't available to buy "brand new, ready to use" nowadays.

I don’t believe one can buy any machinery brand new, off-the-shelf, for any stage of film production. I mean, there are no coaters, slitters or perforators that are 100% suitable and available for purchase right now, ready to assemble and use. Everything is custom, tailor-made and must cost really big bucks.

So, anyone that thinks making film is a matter of buying the right machinery and materials, hiring the right professionals, following a standard recipe for emulsion, then coating and finishing... well, I’ll keep that judgement for myself.

 

[Agulliver]

I'd argue that P30 *is* a fantastic film, and quite unlike anything else on the market. I love my Fomapan 100, Ilfrod HP5+ and FP4+...but P30 has it's own very distinctive look....and no visible grain. When it appears in 120 it's going to be something of a game changer for anyone who wants to make huge enlargements.

But more than that....Ferrania have announced that they should be able to manufacture the product in-house now...that means not just coating the film but making finished 35mm cassettes and boxing them, ready to ship out to us....rather than coating the film and relying on some unspecified partner (with whom they had issues) to actually load it into cassettes and box them up. They're working on 120 and then 127.

All the machinery and expertise to make E6 slide film is there, they just need time and funds. And before anyone whines about "I supported the kickstarter campaign".....yes, that was explicitly to buy and save the machinery....which they did.

 

[FILM Ferrania]

GOOD, but I am glad that I did not start holding my breathe at the beginning of this thread.

I'm really glad, too! I've got enough issues without having someone's self-inflicted suffocation on my conscience.

To be perfectly frank, there have been many times over the past few years when it has seemed like FILM Ferrania "will never happen," to use your words.

And yet, despite everything that has happened, we are still here - still trying to create a sustainable production solution for film that can withstand the coming decades.



But you are correct that this thread has become exceedingly long. At some point in the near future, it will be time to shut it down.

If it is because we have failed and closed our doors, you are of course free to start an "I Told You So" thread. There are certainly a few people who would join that thread and you can pat each other on the back for your wisdom and foresight.

I would simply warn you and some other folks that the film industry is a house of cards that is somehow still standing after 98% of the cards have been removed. Wishing ill on anyone who is trying to put some of those cards back is really not in your own best interest.

I suspect that when we shut this thread down, it will be because it's time to discuss our products instead of our ambitions.

By the way - awesome username!

 

[FILM Ferrania]

I don’t believe one can buy any machinery brand new, off-the-shelf, for any stage of film production. I mean, there are no coaters, slitters or perforators that are 100% suitable and available for purchase right now, ready to assemble and use. Everything is custom, tailor-made and must cost really big bucks.

So, anyone that thinks making film is a matter of buying the right machinery and materials, hiring the right professionals, following a standard recipe for emulsion, then coating and finishing... well, I’ll keep that judgement for myself.

You are completely correct on all points.

There are companies who can and will fabricate new film production equipment, but you're right, you can't just pick something from a catalog. All film manufacturing equipment is bespoke and extremely expensive to the point that making new machines is often not financially feasible.

No one, not even Kodak, can simply go out and BUY everything they need. This is because even with their relatively considerable resources, buying a new coater and the necessary synthesis machinery, as well as hiring in a dedicated staff specifically to make Ektachrome (to use a relevant example) would be company suicide.

Instead, they are adapting their process to make Ektachrome using "the stuff in the room" - and as we have all seen, this takes time. There is no shortcut. There is no "app for that." And this kind of work does not exist in "Internet Time."

 

[FILM Ferrania]

I'd argue that P30 *is* a fantastic film, and quite unlike anything else on the market. I love my Fomapan 100, Ilfrod HP5+ and FP4+...but P30 has it's own very distinctive look....and no visible grain. When it appears in 120 it's going to be something of a game changer for anyone who wants to make huge enlargements.

But more than that....Ferrania have announced that they should be able to manufacture the product in-house now...that means not just coating the film but making finished 35mm cassettes and boxing them, ready to ship out to us....rather than coating the film and relying on some unspecified partner (with whom they had issues) to actually load it into cassettes and box them up. They're working on 120 and then 127.

All the machinery and expertise to make E6 slide film is there, they just need time and funds. And before anyone whines about "I supported the kickstarter campaign".....yes, that was explicitly to buy and save the machinery....which they did.

Thank you for this!

We agree that P30 is unique and we are quite proud of it.

More to the point, you are very correct that time and funds are all that is necessary for us to move forward. And since funds buy time, raising such funds has been our entire focus for the past couple of months while the government is taking their time replacing our internal power plant.

And while I can't say anything specific about the fundraising - I can say "so far, so good."

 

[FILM Ferrania]

I think that most setbacks have had little to do with Ferrania itself and more to do with the Italian infrastructure projects.

This is an important point. I did some math the other day. Subtracting all of the time the government has been working on our building and the time when the building was not 100% operational due to unfinished projects - we have been fully operational just 18 months.

Four of those months were way back in 2015 before the asbestos was found - so that time was, in the end, pretty much wasted. The other 14 months were from September 2016 - November 2017 and during that time, we created and produced P30 film - and sold every last roll within days of making it available.

We have not been entirely idle during the downtime - quite the contrary. But since we do not have a bottomless bank account, we have had to be very very selective about projects that were undertaken in the downtime - choosing only those we could accomplish with zero or extremely minimal costs, and projects that in one small way or another would add value to our overall situation.

 

[faberryman]

This is an important point. I did some math the other day. Subtracting all of the time the government has been working on our building and the time when the building was not 100% operational due to unfinished projects - we have been fully operational just 18 months. Four of those months were way back in 2015 before the asbestos was found - so that time was, in the end, pretty much wasted. The other 14 months were from September 2016 - November 2017 and during that time, we created and produced P30 film - and sold every last roll within days of making it available.

Yeah, Film Ferrania is the real victim here.

 

[FILM Ferrania]

They are almost done in the "having a working film factory" task, so they are almost ready to get into the "make slide film" task.

This observation is also a very good one - although it's not quite as simple as "Step 1 then Step 2"...

You are right that with regard to Step 1 "Having a Working Film Factory" - we are nearly at the point of minimum viability. Continuous production is just around the corner, even if we have lots of work to do to expand on that.

There are a couple more sub-steps before we are at Step 2 - but these should move relatively quickly once the shop is open on a daily basis.

 

[FILM Ferrania]

Yeah, Film Ferrania is the real victim here.

I'm not trying to say that we are victims.

We have faced many many frustrations and delays, but the end result in every case is a benefit to us in the long term.

 

[ME Super]

I'd say that once you guys have your power plant fixed up, and your production bottlenecks resolved, you'll have the ability to produce continuously, which is a good thing. This will give you guys a revenue stream that you haven't had before, which should contribute to your viability.

Now that I have multiple 35mm bodies (and a medium format TLR that uses 120), next time the P30 comes available I'll definitely be trying it out. I've heard that although it's quite slow in DR5, (ISO 16!) it's a really good film with lots of shadow detail.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I'm really glad, too! I've got enough issues without having someone's self-inflicted suffocation on my conscience.

To be perfectly frank, there have been many times over the past few years when it has seemed like FILM Ferrania "will never happen," to use your words.

And yet, despite everything that has happened, we are still here - still trying to create a sustainable production solution for film that can withstand the coming decades.



But you are correct that this thread has become exceedingly long. At some point in the near future, it will be time to shut it down.

If it is because we have failed and closed our doors, you are of course free to start an "I Told You So" thread. There are certainly a few people who would join that thread and you can pat each other on the back for your wisdom and foresight.

I would simply warn you and some other folks that the film industry is a house of cards that is somehow still standing after 98% of the cards have been removed. Wishing ill on anyone who is trying to put some of those cards back is really not in your own best interest.

I suspect that when we shut this thread down, it will be because it's time to discuss our products instead of our ambitions.

By the way - awesome username!

I am not interested in "I told you so's" I want to see success. Nothing stinks like success.

 

[wblynch]

126 Instamatic. ...waiting

 

[markjwyatt]

You are completely correct on all points.

There are companies who can and will fabricate new film production equipment, but you're right, you can't just pick something from a catalog. All film manufacturing equipment is bespoke and extremely expensive to the point that making new machines is often not financially feasible.

No one, not even Kodak, can simply go out and BUY everything they need. This is because even with their relatively considerable resources, buying a new coater and the necessary synthesis machinery, as well as hiring in a dedicated staff specifically to make Ektachrome (to use a relevant example) would be company suicide.

Instead, they are adapting their process to make Ektachrome using "the stuff in the room" - and as we have all seen, this takes time. There is no shortcut. There is no "app for that." And this kind of work does not exist in "Internet Time."

I think the only alternative to a Film Ferrania or a Kodak, etc., is going to be to develop designs and configurations for press-based film coaters that can be distributed locally. Then you might get into a "craft film" scenario where small shops will offer interesting film products (possibly paper products also, but this may drive a hybrid process, film --> scanner). I suspect this can be done, but any given press line is going to be limited on capacity, and produce not insignificant waste (edge waste [1-2" per side] relative to press widths- typically 12"), so there would have to be regional lines, plus costs may also be substantially higher unless some standardization and combined purchasing (of equipment and consumables) could occur. I suspect we will see this if film does not take-off on its own soon. In addition to presses, prototype coating lines could be utilized (say 12-36" widths) but likely at higher costs and less standardization.

There are many challenges (ovens and drying for instance). This will likely result in much slower lines.

Has Film Ferrania considered a distributed manufacturing approach? This is kind of along the lines of 3D Printing concepts (i.e, produce in place, at will, from "recipes", in the case of 3D Printing, recipes are CAD files and BOMs). Press based coating will likely not be as flexible as 3D Printing, but some developments could take place that may drive it in that direction.

 

[FILM Ferrania]

Has Film Ferrania considered a distributed manufacturing approach? This is kind of along the lines of 3D Printing concepts (i.e, produce in place, at will, from "recipes", in the case of 3D Printing, recipes are CAD files and BOMs). Press based coating will likely not be as flexible as 3D Printing, but some developments could take place that may drive it in that direction.

I must say that I very much like your out-of-the-box thinking.

Your ideas certainly seem feasible on some level, and I applaud the concepts - but I just don't think we are there yet.

Film manufacturing requires highly specialized equipment and there is no viable business model, that I can think of, that allows for anything but centralized bulk production.

Distributed "bespoke" production would be too expensive for both the company and the end customer - and worse, there would be absolutely no way to control the quality or consistency of the product if it was being made by 100 different "mini-coaters". And since the vast majority of film consumers wish to buy fully finished rolls they can pop into their camera, that only adds to the problem.

3D printing technology has made huge strides in a short period of time. I just saw a YouTube video for the first desktop 3D printer that can produce metal objects, something that even two years ago required a very high-end machine with a very big price tag. But we are still a long way from being able to 3D print film. Let's just take the 35mm canister itself as an example. It needs a piece of adhesive-backed felt, a tin outer shell (to be retail worthy), the core, a piece of tape or other type of fastener, and the end caps. 6 separate components made from 4 distinctly different materials that must be assembled in a particular order - and in complete darkness of course. Oh, and the tolerances of all these components must be at the micron level to prevent light leaks. 120 is a bit simpler, but coating carbon black onto paper and printing the numbers on the reverse side, in a way that does not in any way interfere with the film itself - is really much trickier to do than I ever suspected before learning the details myself.

I have yet to see a 3D printer that can make felt, and all of the other components are a tiny fraction of the cost to make using traditional die/molding methods. This will be true for some years yet.

With that said, we are keeping our eyes on 3D printing tech. At the rate it's advancing, who knows what may be possible in 15 or 20 years. Maybe one day, we can walk up to a small alcove in our ready room and say "Computer. Kodachrome, 120 format," and have it materialize. That would certainly make my life WAY less complicated.

 

[Agulliver]

With that said, we are keeping our eyes on 3D printing tech. At the rate it's advancing, who knows what may be possible in 15 or 20 years. Maybe one day, we can walk up to a small alcove in our ready room and say "Computer. Kodachrome, 120 format," and have it materialize. That would certainly make my life WAY less complicated.

Nah....you'd just get people complaining that they couldn't process the Kodachrome....

Make it so.

 

[markjwyatt]

I must say that I very much like your out-of-the-box thinking.

Your ideas certainly seem feasible on some level, and I applaud the concepts - but I just don't think we are there yet.

Film manufacturing requires highly specialized equipment and there is no viable business model, that I can think of, that allows for anything but centralized bulk production.

Distributed "bespoke" production would be too expensive for both the company and the end customer - and worse, there would be absolutely no way to control the quality or consistency of the product if it was being made by 100 different "mini-coaters". And since the vast majority of film consumers wish to buy fully finished rolls they can pop into their camera, that only adds to the problem.

3D printing technology has made huge strides in a short period of time. I just saw a YouTube video for the first desktop 3D printer that can produce metal objects, something that even two years ago required a very high-end machine with a very big price tag. But we are still a long way from being able to 3D print film. Let's just take the 35mm canister itself as an example. It needs a piece of adhesive-backed felt, a tin outer shell (to be retail worthy), the core, a piece of tape or other type of fastener, and the end caps. 6 separate components made from 4 distinctly different materials that must be assembled in a particular order - and in complete darkness of course. Oh, and the tolerances of all these components must be at the micron level to prevent light leaks. 120 is a bit simpler, but coating carbon black onto paper and printing the numbers on the reverse side, in a way that does not in any way interfere with the film itself - is really much trickier to do than I ever suspected before learning the details myself.

I have yet to see a 3D printer that can make felt, and all of the other components are a tiny fraction of the cost to make using traditional die/molding methods. This will be true for some years yet.

With that said, we are keeping our eyes on 3D printing tech. At the rate it's advancing, who knows what may be possible in 15 or 20 years. Maybe one day, we can walk up to a small alcove in our ready room and say "Computer. Kodachrome, 120 format," and have it materialize. That would certainly make my life WAY less complicated.

Thanks for your comments. I suspect one of the biggest barriers will be having the know-how and control to grind, disperse, etc. the silver halide grains, as well as the general and specialized chemistry. I suspect also that even if a way to have suppliers prepare this in advance (with minimal effort at the coating site), mainly B&W would be feasible. As things develop, color may follow. I would not dismiss this just knowing that people are hand coating plates and other substrates using silver and alternative processes. I think the economic question is crucial. I suspect also, that the average consumer may not be interested in film, but rather more serious photographers.

I was not actually proposing to 3D print film, especially not the entire cartridge assembly plus film. I was using 3D printing as an analogy for distributed on-demand manufacturing. If some in-situ method of film forming were to be developed it may be more of a layered 2D method than a 3D printing method (though 3D printing, aka "additive manufacturing", sort of fits the bill in a way).

I think your Star Trek replicator visions are a bit in the future also, but surprisingly we are getting closer (we are close to the Jetson's already)!

 

[wblynch]

What would be really cool is if Film Ferrania got the formula and other stuff from Fuji to make new Acros. They would sell a ton of it.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

...or a real infra-red film.

 

[Berkeley Mike]

I just skimmed/read the 3948 contributions to this thread since 2015 over the last week. Film Ferrenia has done a fantastic job trying to keep everyone informed and babysitting the usual clowns that show up in such discussions. That the small group of Ferreniers saw the potential for film production in a pile of cast-offs in derelict buildings and made this work, and it is working, is remarkable. Keeping the idea alive from the moment of inspiration through the complications of government, utilities, new environmental concerns, an internet, new economic models and a fluctuating market is a miracle in itself.

I am also impressed with so many contributors who have been patient, positive, and constructive during the making of this salami.

I doubt that I will ever shoot film again but I do understand what it takes to make such things work. You are so close; a little luck would not go amiss. Best wishes.

 

[cmacd123]

But you are correct that this thread has become exceedingly long. At some point in the near future, it will be time to shut it down.
I suspect that when we shut this thread down, it will be because it's time to discuss our products instead of our ambitions.

No need for a shut down, BUT next time you have an announcement WHY NOT START A NEW THREAD! (do mention Ferrania in the title.) "Like Ferrania produces first in house converted P30" or "LRF coater back in Action at Ferrania" or "126 size Ferrania P30 to ship by 4th Quarter"