Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

[Photo Engineer]

But how many test runs would even Ferrania need to modify an old 3M formula to work on a Kodak Machine. the lab coater that they are making the P30 on was at least designed to have some sort of scaling factors with the 3M production coaters. all the parameters that can be adjusted would need to be to make any 3M era formula at a Kodak plant, (or on a former AGFA machine, or even at Foma or Ilford. (who actually have another clone of an Agfa Machine as far as I know)

Well, we don't know, do we? There is at least the possibility of a try. But then again it would be the same as making P30. A shot in the dark.

BTW, I remember the formula posted for P30 or some similar film a while back. It itself was just notes in a notebook.

PE

 

[Harry Callahan]

Well, but the P30-formula they found actually was made exactly for the coater they are using right now - which was the reason for them to give it a try. They said so in the update or Dave said it here.

 

[Harry Callahan]

you strategically forgot to quote post 3359. But that's is ok because you talk facts.

BTW Berri, it was you who started to "talk facts", remember?
"Ferrania got money to make colour reversal film ant this is a fact"
This got the whole fact-thingy started. But you don´t seem to remember what you said a few days ago as you also don´t seem to remember the kickstarter-campaign.
Are you really that forgetful or are you just trying to turn things around on me now?

 

[Berri]

BTW Berri, it was you who started to "talk facts", remember?
"Ferrania got money to make colour reversal film ant this is a fact"
This got the whole fact-thingy started. But you don´t seem to remember what you said a few days ago as you also don´t seem to remember the kickstarter-campaign.
Are you really that forgetful or are you just trying to turn things around on me now?

You are right, the campaign was just to acquire the machinery. My wrong. I was wrong to think that this was intended as a first step to make colour reversal film, eventually. I honestly remember though that when the campaign started a lot of people (on this forum as well as others) were already asking for ferrania chrome in 126, sheet film, and soo on. among this load of people many were backers, now you could say that all of them were just silly to believe that, but they are still backers who gave money in the hope one day ferrania could produce colour reversal film. That's all

 

[jonasfj]

I assume no personal opinions are allowed on this forum. Nevermind, here's a fact: Ferrania got backed because it was made clear that their goal was to produce colour reversal film. Here's another: No colour reversal film has yet been produced. You could argue that the money was used to save the equipment, but the final goal was to make colour reversal film. You just don't want to hear it.

You are obviously correct! The money was collected to start at business to make color reversal film. There is no doubt about it. It is clearly stated in their crowdfunding documents.

Then, as in any business things can go wrong, unforeseen can happen and there can have been miscalculations from the beginning. All understandable.

However, the new information coming out that they are working on film for a research project makes me wonder. If it is true, which I have not been able to verify, it would mean that Film Ferrania is lying. They claim that they cannot make film because their supplier cannot slit or package or whatever, but the truth would be that they are busy with another project. So, nobody knows if this is true or not. We only have the Google translation of that Italian new article.

Thus, David Bias! Enlighten us!

 

[Berri]

You are obviously correct! The money was collected to start at business to make color reversal film. There is no doubt about it. It is clearly stated in their crowdfunding documents.

others would just coll me a liar for saying that, but there you go...
Now it just sounds like all they wanted to do was to save the machines, and maybe, who knows, produce some little film.
About the specialty film I have nothing to say because I just don't know. The article however seems to go in that direction. "Oltre alle attività di ricerca per la produzione dei propri prodotti, FILM Ferrania ha progettato per il laboratorio del Gran Sasso una nuova generazione di film nucleare sul tipo di quello già utilizzato nel progetto Opera, in grado di identificare la presenza di neutrini ed essere utilizzato per applicazioni di vulcanologia. Data la notevole specificità del know-how recuperato e la sua applicabilità anche ad altri settori industriali tecnologicamente avanzati (nanotecnologie, produzione di film sottili per schermi LCD, ecc.)" which is clearly sayng that Ferrania has projected a special nuclear film for the Gran Sasso Laboratory, although It isn't clear wheter it is refering to old Ferrania, or new Ferrania. Anyway, let's hope that film isn't scratched or reserchers might think they found a new particle! Immagine that! "A new particle discovered...no, wait, it was jusat a scratch on film"

 

[twelvetone12]

They claim that they cannot make film because their supplier cannot slit or package or whatever

No they claim that they are producing and stocking up to avoid not meeting demand (unless DB is straight out lying):
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/film-ferrania-p30.146259/page-15#post-2018623

I do not even post this because I care about Ferrania's reputation or whatever, it is just the whole "opinion=facts" on this topic that saddens me.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

I wish you two, Berri and Harry, would give it a rest. Really.

 

[pbromaghin]

I'm sorry, but color reversal film was not the ultimate goal. The ultimate goal was to create a new film manufacturer that would be around for 100 years and would be able to re-create any film from Ferrania's past. A color reversal film was just one more step on the road to that goal.

 

[Berri]

I'm sorry, but color reversal film was not the ultimate goal. The ultimate goal was to create a new film manufacturer that would be around for 100 years and would be able to re-create any film from Ferrania's past. A color reversal film was just one more step on the road to that goal.

in this article dated 2013 they say that the first films they will produce are ferrania solaris FG100 and a new E6 film based on scotch chrome. In this and in many other articles of that time they made it sound like new colour film was gonna happen in a couple of years.
http://www.clickblog.it/post/85917/ferrania-ricomincera-a-produrre-pellicole

in this one http://www.repubblica.it/economia/a...rno_della_pellicola_per_film_e_foto-96368278/
Nicola and maco say that they are just about to start producing film for S8 16mm and still. In this article is also made clear that the regional government are paying the rent for the buildings.

 

[faberryman]

The second article is dated September 22, 2014, and states in part (translated):

"Starting from mid-October, FilmFerrania will begin production of Super 8 and 16 mm formats for cinematography and 35 and 120 mm for photography."

and this is from the front page of their Kickstarter page at the same time:

"We want to be clear that backing this project is not simply pre-purchasing film before its release. We are offering rewards in the truest sense of the word.

With the existing machinery, staff and materials we have on hand, we are able to make just one very limited batch of film this year. The first stages of film production are already underway.

This film is a re-engineered version of Dead Link Removed - a 100 ASA, daylight-balanced Color Reversal (chrome or slide) film, developed by the Imation company in the late-1990s and produced by Ferrania until 2003. We will package this film into four formats.

We are offering this very first production batch exclusively to Kickstarter backers in a unique special edition - created by hand by our founding team in Italy.

Each box is sealed in protective foil, then wrapped with a label that references the 1960s Ferrania-3M packaging design. Each label is hand-numbered. Worldwide shipping is included. This edition will never be produced again.

All film rewards are limited due to our small production capacity with the current setup. If you are interested in a reward, get it now!

The reward levels are priced to allow us to create this batch, ship it to you, and have enough left over to purchase the remaining machinery that is most crucial to our long-term success."

As stated, the goal was to make film for the rewards, and use the left over money to buy the machines, in that order. All this revisionist history that the Kickstarter program was never about making film is pure hokum. Now, I understand that things didn't work out as they planned for all sorts of reasons, but the plan all along was to make film - color film, not just buy machines.

 

[macfred]

I wish you two, Berri and Harry, would give it a rest. Really.

+1 ! You're a wise man, Andrew.

 

[Harry Callahan]

You are right, the campaign was just to acquire the machinery. My wrong. I was wrong to think that this was intended as a first step to make colour reversal film, eventually. I honestly remember though that when the campaign started a lot of people (on this forum as well as others) were already asking for ferrania chrome in 126, sheet film, and soo on. among this load of people many were backers, now you could say that all of them were just silly to believe that, but they are still backers who gave money in the hope one day ferrania could produce colour reversal film. That's all

In case you´re not being sarcastic, but really mean it (some posts ago you said "none. There is no point arguing with guys like you." but now you do seem to have a point though and you´re again talking to me):

The money was to save the machines. The machines were to make a film factory. You really don´t remember what they wanted to buy the machines for? To put them in storage for 100 years?
Come on Berri, they wanted and want to make a film factory. They allready made some P30. Sure, many people hoped that there would be color film soon, but we know why it wasn´t possible till now.
So i again may ask, what´s your point?

 

[Harry Callahan]

You are obviously correct! The money was collected to start at business to make color reversal film. There is no doubt about it. It is clearly stated in their crowdfunding documents.

Then, as in any business things can go wrong, unforeseen can happen and there can have been miscalculations from the beginning. All understandable.

However, the new information coming out that they are working on film for a research project makes me wonder. If it is true, which I have not been able to verify, it would mean that Film Ferrania is lying. They claim that they cannot make film because their supplier cannot slit or package or whatever, but the truth would be that they are busy with another project. So, nobody knows if this is true or not. We only have the Google translation of that Italian new article.

Thus, David Bias! Enlighten us!

Well Berri said:
"I assume no personal opinions are allowed on this forum. Nevermind, here's a fact: Ferrania got backed because it was made clear that their goal was to produce colour reversal film. Here's another: No colour reversal film has yet been produced. You could argue that the money was used to save the equipment, but the final goal was to make colour reversal film. You just don't want to hear it."

No one can argue that the money was to save the machines, as the money actually was to save the machines. One can´t argue about that.
And the final goal was to set up a factory being able of producing any kind of film, not only E6. But Berri doesn´t seem to want to hear that.
....

The money was to save the machines, to start a business so they can make some color film - but the business wasn´t and isn´t only about that color film. They often stated how much potential there is in Ferrania and that this potential is what they wanted to save. One of the points Berri doesn´t seem to be aware of, as he thinks for example that Inovis Coat is just capable of the same as Ferrania.

However we don´t know whether this "new" information about atomic film really is new or not. I don´t think so as it would be a good update for Ferrania to tell everyone that they´re making some money right now - that would be good for them and good to know for the backers. Furthermore i think that atomic film would be harder to produce than let´s say P30, which makes this "new" information rather unlikely for me.
But if they really were producing some atomic film right now, it musn´t mean that they are lying. What is atomic film usually put out as? As 135 , 16mm or just sheets?
It could be well possible that Ferrania is having problems with finishing 135, but not sheets as finishing sheets is less complicated, right?
So even if they were producing atomic film without telling us, this doesn´t mean that they´re lying. The truth then was that they´re working on another project, because they can´t go on with P30 right now. That they had to work on another project to make some money, so they were be able to continue work on P30 and color, right? And that´s just theoretical, were not talking facts right now.

 

[Harry Callahan]

others would just coll me a liar for saying that, but there you go...
Now it just sounds like all they wanted to do was to save the machines, and maybe, who knows, produce some little film.
About the specialty film I have nothing to say because I just don't know. The article however seems to go in that direction. "Oltre alle attività di ricerca per la produzione dei propri prodotti, FILM Ferrania ha progettato per il laboratorio del Gran Sasso una nuova generazione di film nucleare sul tipo di quello già utilizzato nel progetto Opera, in grado di identificare la presenza di neutrini ed essere utilizzato per applicazioni di vulcanologia. Data la notevole specificità del know-how recuperato e la sua applicabilità anche ad altri settori industriali tecnologicamente avanzati (nanotecnologie, produzione di film sottili per schermi LCD, ecc.)" which is clearly sayng that Ferrania has projected a special nuclear film for the Gran Sasso Laboratory, although It isn't clear wheter it is refering to old Ferrania, or new Ferrania. Anyway, let's hope that film isn't scratched or reserchers might think they found a new particle! Immagine that! "A new particle discovered...no, wait, it was jusat a scratch on film"

No. They allready stated in their campaign that they wanted the money to save the machines and built a factory. Again something you don´t seem to remember. Or in your words: "You just don't want to hear it."

Now you´re allready speculating (hope that film isn´t scratched) on a speculation (does Ferrania produce atomic film right now?). You seem to have a lot of time. And facts.

 

[Harry Callahan]

in this article dated 2013 they say that the first films they will produce are ferrania solaris FG100 and a new E6 film based on scotch chrome. In this and in many other articles of that time they made it sound like new colour film was gonna happen in a couple of years.
http://www.clickblog.it/post/85917/ferrania-ricomincera-a-produrre-pellicole

in this one http://www.repubblica.it/economia/a...rno_della_pellicola_per_film_e_foto-96368278/
Nicola and maco say that they are just about to start producing film for S8 16mm and still. In this article is also made clear that the regional government are paying the rent for the buildings.

First, we know why there hasn´t been any color film jet.
Secound, a "couple of years" can be 3, 4, 5 or even a little more - were having a "couple of years" right now.
Third, we knew and know that they also wanted to put color out as 16mm and S8. We also did and do know that the LRF is owned by the government - and that the goverment would like to see some "new" (as the former workers of Ferrania would be working in their old jobs again) jobs, which is why the goverment is helping them out.
Your point?

 

[Harry Callahan]

As stated, the goal was to make film for the rewards, and use the left over money to buy the machines, in that order. All this revisionist history that the Kickstarter program was never about making film is pure hokum. Now, I understand that things didn't work out as they planned for all sorts of reasons, but the plan all along was to make film - color film, not just buy machines.

"With the existing machinery, staff and materials we have on hand, we are able to make just one very limited batch of film this year. "

So when you´re having existing machinery, staff and materials at hand you still need money to produce film? You need money to buy/pay what you´re allready having at hand?

All the things still being at the former plant and laboratories, like the chemistry for example, would have been disposed if the founders hadn´t shown up. As disposing chemicals proper can cost quite some money, the owner (the goverment) probably just donated this things to the founders - as this was cheaper for them than to pay disposal. So the founders didn´t had to pay for raw chemicals, acetate base etc. - and as we know since P30 they even had some 135-cartridges from former operations left. Making the color film probably didn´t cost them anything but electricity, some packing and shipment.

The money was to save the machines (and they only had to pay price per kilo/pound for the machines so they could buy a lot of machines) - and with those machines a film factory was meant to be built and some color film to be made as a reward. The most of the money was meant to save the machines and the rest to maybe pay the workers and probably to pay finishing, packing and shipment. The main goal was not to produce a small batch of color film - and the money wasn´t meant for that - but to save the machines and built a capable film factory for another 100 years of analog film.
Why would they be talking about "100 years of analog film" if the kickstarter only was about producing a small batch of color film and then go away and let the wrecking ball demolish everything?

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Are you two just tired of reading, or are you fine with those Berris stating alternative facts?
Fell free to ignore this post if you´re just tired of reading. And regarding the latter... you probably also will ignore this post.
Please correct me if i´m wrong.

No, I don't ignore anyone. Carry on if you must.

 

[Harry Callahan]

No, I don't ignore anyone. Carry on if you must.

As one can see i decided to delete this post of mine, but thank you for your answer.

 

[jonasfj]

75% of the Kickstarter funding was supposed to be used for "Purchase and removal of Trixie, Walter and Big Boy".

Trixie was the machine to produce triacetate base. Walter is the equipment for making the coating and Big Boy is the actual coater.

The P30 was as I understand made on Little Boy, which is the lab scale coating machine that was available already from the beginning. They also seem to use triacetate base that also was available in storage. The capacity of these machines are stated to be 3000 rolls per week. Thus, if they had been running continuously, they would have been making around 80,000 rolls in half a year. By selling those, the revenue would have been double the Kickstarter funding.

So, this raises a few questions: Since they are not using any of thes machines they raised money for, are they even operational? Why are they not producing and selling P30 as they said they would?

 

[Harry Callahan]

Seems were getting closer on the what-was-the-money-for---issue. Nice.

I can´t remember right now whether the coating machine they´re using right now is called "little boy", but as this machine was standing still for about 15 years, they had to make it run again first. Just like a car standing mothballed for 15 years in the garage one could, but shouldn´t start the engine without any servicing/restauration.
Same goes for the drying tunnel of the film and also for the finishing machines, like perforators, slitters etc. .
In addition to that they planned right from the beginning to expand the capacity of the coater - they planned to convert it so it can take wider and longer rolls of acetate base to make production more economical. The color film was planned to be coated on the coater still being un-modified - but as this didn´t work out they maybe have modified the coater or they are modifying the coater right now.
There was an update about increasing volume of the coater being able to coat. As film is pretty delicate in production, every machine has to be cleaned thorough - and of course must be in perfect working condition.
As they had to service the coater + drying tunnel first, they didn´t had time to also service the perforators, 35mm-slitters and so on, which is why they´re not able to finish the P30 themselfes right now - and also if there would have been made some color film in 2014 the finishing would have been made by a third party.

The machines they saved are pretty much anything. Slitters, perforators, acetate base machines, even coaters and coating heads - as one usually needs different coating heads for B&W, color and maybe even printing paper - and they´re allready planning to move the production of P30 onto another coater, so the R&D-coater is free for color only. Dave said so in this interview running on youtube.
As all of these machines are like cars, having stood still for about 15 years or even longer, it of course does take some time and money to service them - as there is no use by running them for a few months, but then having them wrecked forever.

As they also have said there seemed to be some problems with the third party finishing P30 - the "bottleneck" as they called it. In addition to that they sold volume of P30 considered for 4 month within 5 days - and that´s why they want to built up enough stock before they go back in sale - Dave said so again a few days ago here.

These should be the reasons why P30 isn´t back on the market right now.

 

[Berri]

Now you´re allready speculating (hope that film isn´t scratched) on a speculation (does Ferrania produce atomic film right now?). You seem to have a lot of time. And facts.

Mr, as I said I don't know weather they are or not producing atomic film. I just translated what an article say. Why don't you just call the Gran Sasso laboratory and ask yourself. The scratches are a notorious defect (feature?) on P30, at least as what I saw on the internet, and that was a joke, anyway. you take things to seriusly. I have some free time, yes. Don't you?

 

[Berri]

Seems were getting closer on the what-was-the-money-for---issue. Nice

Actually, I already said thet you were right and I was wrong about it, what more do you want to hear? The money was to save machines from the junkyard, they never intended to produce film with it.

 

[trendland]

Exactly my point. They can coat any formula that anyone has including multilayer reversal film from Ferrania if they are asked.

PE

PE - (just by the time - what a discussion about Ferrania Film - I notice something seams to go wrong due to multiple delays)
from my understanding manufacturing E6 films in highest quality is the hardest business in film making.
Would you agree with ?
The possible reason from my point of view to make it expensive - is the amound of film you need for test runs.
This relation of costs from testing, adjustments of all emulsion baking parametern, testing again, new adjustments to reach highest standard a.s.o. makes E6 films inefficient in
concern of the total amound of films from a later full production run ?
So the costs to prepare a little production run of E6 films may be the same of the total costs of the later manufacturing?
This relation is best if you are producing 150 million films in a 24/7 run over some month - so it should be no problem - but if your production run has just 150.000 films ( the equivalent of this in 135 ) in 24/7 production over 4 days it may destroy any kind of pricing calculation?
Because you will reach a point the preparing of mass production is producing costs (from test runs with very large amounds of vasted films, raw chems a.s.o.) wich may have half the price (or more) the final films are calculated. This increases the final pricing of new films - wich results in addition a lost of total demand to the new films. (self-reinforcing processes)?
NOW MY QUESTION TO YOU (sorry for long introduction)
Do you remember the nearly amound of vasted E6 films at Kodak - from preparing mass production runs with new improved emulsions?

with regards

PS : I heard about the latest Ektachrome variants (beginning 2000 - 2002) were a little sensible in concern of reaching all
designed charakteristics in manufacturing. So Kodak Films beginning this time - had more visible differences from emulsion numbers (little more in comparison before where they were often not so much noticable) and the decision to choose outstanding production run quality for professional films was a little harder than times before.
In outcome latest E6 has had remarquable characteristics and highest quality at all - but it was an absolut hight tech manufacturing.
Sorry but I can't find the article again but as I remember the total ammound of film trash (from test runs) was't mentioned.
But it must have been high.
As a result the manufacturing of a new
Ferrania Chrome today is a very hard task
I would imagine.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Trendland, you are correct that coating a reversal film is very difficult. Among the most difficult of all. As for the rest, I cannot answer you.

PE