Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

Nzoomed · Jan 16, 2016

Look at this, kodak has introduced a new Super8 camera!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Slj1NifipxY

I have always thought that hybrid cameras would be the future. Shame we dont have any SLR hybrids.

Would be great to shoot ferrania on this.

TheToadMen · Jan 17, 2016

Nzoomed said:
Look at this, kodak has introduced a new Super8 camera!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Slj1NifipxY

I have always thought that hybrid cameras would be the future. Shame we dont have any SLR hybrids.

Would be great to shoot ferrania on this.

Might be fun - and something for Kodak to compete with Lomo

Nzoomed · Jan 17, 2016

TheToadMen said:
Might be fun - and something for Kodak to compete with Lomo

I just hope that this means that Kodak have taken peoples feedback onboard and are taking the retro approach.

It would be ultimately successful with a brand such as kodak.
Main downside with vision3 stock is the fact that you cant project it, unless the labs were able to make reversal prints for a projector.

Would be good to see magnetic sound again also, or else its impossible to play sound and project at the same time.

TheToadMen · Jan 18, 2016

Nzoomed said:
I just hope that this means that Kodak have taken peoples feedback onboard and are taking the retro approach.

It would be ultimately successful with a brand such as kodak.
Main downside with vision3 stock is the fact that you cant project it, unless the labs were able to make reversal prints for a projector.

Would be good to see magnetic sound again also, or else its impossible to play sound and project at the same time.

Find your answers here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6Iba3_Qolk
and here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Slj1NifipxY

(retro approach & analogue revival by Kodak, sound recording, film developed & digitalized, ...)

wlodekmj · Jan 18, 2016

Nzoomed said:
I just hope that this means that Kodak have taken peoples feedback onboard and are taking the retro approach.

It would be ultimately successful with a brand such as kodak.
Main downside with vision3 stock is the fact that you cant project it, unless the labs were able to make reversal prints for a projector.

Would be good to see magnetic sound again also, or else its impossible to play sound and project at the same time.

No magnetic stripes - the Kodak interviews say that sound will be recorded separately - on an SD card!

So, if the camera has a slot for an SD card anyway, why would anyone except a very few truly diehard film lovers, use this, rather than a movie camera that records the sound and the images on the card? Especially since - as Nzoomed says - you can't project (color) film directly. The interviews show only Tri-X Reversal and Vision-3 Super-8 film.

So we would need Ferrania (or Fuji) Super-8 reversal film. Unless Kodak were to bring back Ektachrome to go with this movie camera!

Roger Cole · Jan 18, 2016

I asked similar questions in the thread about this camera and pretty much got lambasted. I admit, except for film schools and their students (which are the real market for this anyway) I don't get the appeal either. Spend a lot more money to shoot on film and end up viewing it in digital anyway.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk and 100% recycled electrons - because I care.

Andrew O'Neill · Jan 19, 2016

I think the hybrid approach is great. Many of us do it with our film images anyway.

kb3lms · Jan 19, 2016

Was FF going to make Super 8 film? IDK.

I have to agree that the Kodak Super 8 camera is a puzzling kind of thing. I'm glad they are doing it because at least it is some positive statement from them about film. The new CEO at least seems to think there is still something there for them. Sort of wondering if maybe the whole project is just to attract some attention and see where it goes from there.

Although I have mixed feelings, I think I hope they do not decide to come out with that once-a-year run of Ektachrome. Sure it would be great to see, but it would also be direct competition FF Ferraniachrome.

What the hell, maybe EK will do a run of Kodachrome instead. LOL

RattyMouse · Jan 19, 2016

kb3lms said:
Was FF going to make Super 8 film? IDK.

I have to agree that the Kodak Super 8 camera is a puzzling kind of thing. I'm glad they are doing it because at least it is some positive statement from them about film. The new CEO at least seems to think there is still something there for them. Sort of wondering if maybe the whole project is just to attract some attention and see where it goes from there.

Although I have mixed feelings, I think I hope they do not decide to come out with that once-a-year run of Ektachrome. Sure it would be great to see, but it would also be direct competition FF Ferraniachrome.

What the hell, maybe EK will do a run of Kodachrome instead. LOL

I suspect that a resurrection of Ektachrome would simply wipe out Ferrania. I'm sure in their start up calculations they never included the possibility that they would have a second competitor for E-6.

There's simply not enough demand to justify 3 suppliers of E-6 film in today's world.

Roger Cole · Jan 19, 2016

Andrew O'Neill said:
I think the hybrid approach is great. Many of us do it with our film images anyway.

Well - honestly I don't get that either and if I couldn't print optically I'd just shoot digitally myself, but YMMV of course. But in that case folks aren't paying $70 for three minutes of video. Film costs more per shot than digital though some is recouped by the fact the gear is much cheaper now. But this would be a good chunk of change for a new camera and more still to process each film cartridge to end up with a digital result anyway. Ok, a different look - of a very subminiature format. We don't have to understand why others do what they do. Most of my friends - well online ones who have seen my actual print results anyway - in other forums for other hobbies can't understand why in the hell I would shoot film and work in the darkroom either.

EDIT: I will add a use I do plan to make of hybrid work flow: I shoot 35mm slides mainly for projection but often times would like to be able to make prints as well. For practical purposes nowadays that means hybrid work, and I'll eventually get a better scanner and printer mainly for that reason. But if Ilfochrome or Type R were still available I'd use them. They aren't, so I can't.

Roger Cole · Jan 19, 2016

RattyMouse said:
I suspect that a resurrection of Ektachrome would simply wipe out Ferrania. I'm sure in their start up calculations they never included the possibility that they would have a second competitor for E-6.

There's simply not enough demand to justify 3 suppliers of E-6 film in today's world.

Fuji is beyond the place where I remarked about E6 in general some time back (couple of years? not sure - but the comment got quoted here some) of having one foot in the grave and the other on a banana peel. No way to be sure of course and I hope it isn't so but it wouldn't surprise me if Fuji stopped making the remaining E6 films before Ferrania gets to start. I think the odds of Kodak starting up E6 production again are close enough to zero to be discounted, however much we might like it to be otherwise. Any hope of E6 has to be in a much smaller company who can right-size production from the start and so far as I see that means Film Ferrania

kb3lms · Jan 19, 2016

I suspect that a resurrection of Ektachrome would simply wipe out Ferrania.

Agreed. If fact, I would guess the discontinuation of Ektachrome played a large part in FF's calculations to go forward. Not to mention Roger's banana peel thing.

Isn't it just great that all this OT stuff comes up as we vamp here on the Film Ferrania thread? :munch:

Andrew O'Neill · Jan 19, 2016

Well - honestly I don't get that either and if I couldn't print optically I'd just shoot digitally myself, but YMMV of course.

I prefer the look of film. I like the option of being able to scan film in and make digital negative for alt processes. Not hard to get, really.

Ken Nadvornick · Jan 19, 2016

kb3lms said:
Agreed. If fact, I would guess the discontinuation of Ektachrome played a large part in FF's calculations to go forward. Not to mention Roger's banana peel thing.

Here's a radical observation...

Even if Kodak resurrected Ektachrome, either full time or annual run, I would still wait for Film Ferannia.

I'm interested in the total cost of ownership. Not just the first month's payment. And that total cost includes longevity. If after all of their effort I choose to ignore Ferrania in favor of some resurrected Kodak, then Ferrania is wounded. Perhaps even fatally.

Then what happens down the road a bit when Kodak says, hey, this isn't working out. We thought we wanted to do this. But now we don't. We'd really rather expand our blister-pack printing operation. Because there's higher upside potential for next quarter's immediate revenues if we do. So thanks for asking, but never mind...

Then what??

Ken

MattKing · Jan 19, 2016

Kodak Alaris has a worldwide distribution system for photographic product in place.

For film and chemicals, Kodak Alaris relies on other manufacturers for its products.

Does the word "partnership" come to mind?

TheToadMen · Jan 19, 2016

Ken Nadvornick said:
Here's a radical observation...
Even if Kodak resurrected Ektachrome, either full time or annual run, I would still wait for Film Ferannia.
I'm interested in the total cost of ownership. Not just the first month's payment. And that total cost includes longevity. If after all of their effort I choose to ignore Ferrania in favor of some resurrected Kodak, then Ferrania is wounded. Perhaps even fatally.
Then what happens down the road a bit when Kodak says, hey, this isn't working out. We thought we wanted to do this. But now we don't. We'd really rather expand our blister-pack printing operation. Because there's higher upside potential for next quarter's immediate revenues if we do. So thanks for asking, but never mind...
Then what??
Ken

Ken: I think I agree with you.

Maybe relevant, maybe not, but today I bought 4 films in a local drugstore: Agfa Vista Plus (200 ASA, 36 exposure) for 2.49 each and it's a decent film. So I wonder how Ferrania can compete with this in the long run - even without Kodak coming back? A lot of people sympathise with Ferrania, but how many will keep buying their film in the long run and support this? I hope many.

Quite a few stores closed in my town in the last years. I spoke to a lot of people who regretted this, for they still wanted to go there once ... but in the end never did.

Ken Nadvornick · Jan 19, 2016

MattKing said:
Kodak Alaris has a worldwide distribution system for photographic product in place.

For film and chemicals, Kodak Alaris relies on other manufacturers for its products.

Does the word "partnership" come to mind?

It might if the definition of "partnership" could guarantee that newly resurrected competing films named Ektachrome would not result in the demise of Film Ferrania in a still tightly constrained film marketplace. Given the relative levels of name recognition within the current largest remaining markets for film products, I'd have very, very serious doubts.

Does the word "gun-shy" come to mind?

Ken

Nzoomed · Jan 20, 2016

Roger Cole said:
But if Ilfochrome or Type R were still available I'd use them. They aren't, so I can't.

Fuji crystal archive is supposed to last as long as Ilfochrome, and indeed it does appear so from what ive seen.

twelvetone12 · Jan 20, 2016

RattyMouse said:
I suspect that a resurrection of Ektachrome would simply wipe out Ferrania. I'm sure in their start up calculations they never included the possibility that they would have a second competitor for E-6.

There's simply not enough demand to justify 3 suppliers of E-6 film in today's world.

Why? It's not that Ferrania is set up tu just produce 100ISO chrome film, but they can/could make any film, negative, bw, color or whatever in a myriad of formats (could they make a clone of kodachrome? ). Chrome 100 is the starting point since there is a void in the market right now.
Also if ever EK reintroduces e100 in Super8 it does not mean we will have it too ad 35mm of 120 film, or 16mm cine film. And this would still not prevent Ferrania to introduce other types of transparencies.

Xmas · Jan 20, 2016

TheToadMen said:
Ken: I think I agree with you.

Maybe relevant, maybe not, but today I bought 4 films in a local drugstore: Agfa Vista Plus (200 ASA, 36 exposure) for 2.49 each and it's a decent film. So I wonder how Ferrania can compete with this in the long run - even without Kodak coming back? A lot of people sympathise with Ferrania, but how many will keep buying their film in the long run and support this? I hope many.

Quite a few stores closed in my town in the last years. I spoke to a lot of people who regretted this, for they still wanted to go there once ... but in the end never did.

The Agfa says 'made in Ja' on our packs it stops when Fuji stops, and it is C41 - Ferranni are only planning on cine and still E6, when Kodak and Fuji stop stills Ferrani may be able to think about C41 and mono.

Ilford used to do transparency and negative colour, ...

Sal Santamaura · Jan 20, 2016

Nzoomed said:
Fuji crystal archive is supposed to last as long as Ilfochrome...

It last much longer than Ilfochrome on display, not as long in the dark.

kb3lms · Jan 20, 2016

I'm interested in the total cost of ownership. Not just the first month's payment. And that total cost includes longevity. If after all of their effort I choose to ignore Ferrania in favor of some resurrected Kodak, then Ferrania is wounded. Perhaps even fatally.

Agreed!

Sorry if I implied otherwise. Go Film Ferrania!

kb3lms · Jan 20, 2016

....but today I bought 4 films in a local drugstore....

WOW! I wish we could still do this.

railwayman3 · Jan 20, 2016

Roger Cole said:
Fuji is beyond the place where I remarked about E6 in general some time back (couple of years? not sure - but the comment got quoted here some) of having one foot in the grave and the other on a banana peel. No way to be sure of course and I hope it isn't so but it wouldn't surprise me if Fuji stopped making the remaining E6 films before Ferrania gets to start. I think the odds of Kodak starting up E6 production again are close enough to zero to be discounted, however much we might like it to be otherwise. Any hope of E6 has to be in a much smaller company who can right-size production from the start and so far as I see that means Film Ferrania

I'd agree...one of the big problems with film production was the size of Kodak's plant and the difficulty of scaling down for small volume coating. (Noting Bob Shanebrook's book, and also, IIRC, the mention at the time of Kodachrome's discontinuance that one reason was the final single master roll produced enough finished films to cover several year's sales.) The demand for E6 is probably falling to the same as Kodachrome reached, so I can't see a once-a-year special coating being profitable for Kodak, not forgetting that there is then the matter of distribution to customers. Ferrania, with small-scale production, distributed direct or via a few specialist dealers, looks a much more viable proposition.

railwayman3 · Jan 20, 2016

TheToadMen said:
Ken: I think I agree with you.

Maybe relevant, maybe not, but today I bought 4 films in a local drugstore: Agfa Vista Plus (200 ASA, 36 exposure) for 2.49 each and it's a decent film. So I wonder how Ferrania can compete with this in the long run - even without Kodak coming back? A lot of people sympathise with Ferrania, but how many will keep buying their film in the long run and support this? I hope many.

Vista Plus is a C41 film, currently own-label supplied by Fuji. (And it's £1 for 24 exp. in UK Poundland at the moment, the last ones I bought were Sept. 2017 expiry).
The own-label Agfa Precisa E6 (also from Fuji) is more like £5 - £6 online.

Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

Nzoomed

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Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

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